Star Trek 3: Search for Spock

[Beastro]

While The Original Series definitely got to show the friendship between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, the other characters rarely got to have as much time in the spotlight or as much development as the trio did, the series wasn't really an ensemble like future entry would be and felt more like "The Kirk Show," and even in The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan that was the case.

From a psychological standpoint I find TOS trio works as something of a metaphorical mind working together. Spock as the cold rational side, Bones as the reactive emotional side, and Kirk as the executive consciousness that chooses when to listen and follow their advice, but remains in control to act when he sees that either perspective is insufficient.

The Galileo Seven plays on this angle very well with how shocked Spock is that others don't act as rationally as he does and ends with him having to channel some Kirk to give them their only chance of rescue.

[Madner Kami]

I maintain that is NOT Kruge's goal, though. I don't think Kruge actually wants to wipe out the Federation.

See that's the thing. The Klingons already could just wipe out the Federation. You have to assume, that If they could get a Genesis missile through the defenses, then they could get an antimatter warhead or even just a kinetic impactor through the lines with equal ability. And remember, just a halfgram of anti-deuterium meeting it's counter-part results in the spontaneous creation of 21 kilotons TNT-equivalent of energy, conviniently roughly the same as the Nagasaki city-buster...

I mean obviously it's down to writer-knowledge and trying to convey a theme, but still

[Link8909]

From a psychological standpoint I find TOS trio works as something of a metaphorical mind working together. Spock as the cold rational side, Bones as the reactive emotional side, and Kirk as the executive consciousness that chooses when to listen and follow their advice, but remains in control to act when he sees that either perspective is insufficient.

The Galileo Seven plays on this angle very well with how shocked Spock is that others don't act as rationally as he does and ends with him having to channel some Kirk to give them their only chance of rescue.

Very true, also like in "The Tholian Web" when Kirk was presumed dead and both Spock an McCoy were almost at each other throats without him, I do wish that The Original Series had gotten more seasons with episodes like this that shake up the trios dynamic.

[CharlesPhipps]

I maintain that is NOT Kruge's goal, though. I don't think Kruge actually wants to wipe out the Federation.

See that's the thing. The Klingons already could just wipe out the Federation. You have to assume, that If they could get a Genesis missile through the defenses, then they could get an antimatter warhead or even just a kinetic impactor through the lines with equal ability. And remember, just a halfgram of anti-deuterium meeting it's counter-part results in the spontaneous creation of 21 kilotons TNT-equivalent of energy, conviniently roughly the same as the Nagasaki city-buster...

I mean obviously it's down to writer-knowledge and trying to convey a theme, but still

Mind you, I don't think that we're meant to think planets are as vulnerable in Trek as they would be in quote-unquote real life.

It's more like Star Wars where the ability to destroy a planet for a space age civilization is actually impressive.

[CrypticMirror]

I maintain that is NOT Kruge's goal, though. I don't think Kruge actually wants to wipe out the Federation.

See that's the thing. The Klingons already could just wipe out the Federation. You have to assume, that If they could get a Genesis missile through the defenses, then they could get an antimatter warhead or even just a kinetic impactor through the lines with equal ability. And remember, just a halfgram of anti-deuterium meeting it's counter-part results in the spontaneous creation of 21 kilotons TNT-equivalent of energy, conviniently roughly the same as the Nagasaki city-buster...

I mean obviously it's down to writer-knowledge and trying to convey a theme, but still

And this is why putting your kids on Starships is a good idea. Because a ship can always fly away when the space based menace shows up, planets and planetbound populations cannot. People say space is dangerous, but space is where we keep all our planets. I say the problem with Next Gen Trek is not that they have some kids and civilians on the Enterprise, but that they don't have more kids and civilians on the Enterprise, along with lots of other ship based civilisations. If there was then Romulan society would still be a thing.

[Deledrius]

And I like Star Trek Beyond. But Kirk and crew didn't go as above and beyond as the crew in Voyage Home did to earn that legacy.

It didn't help that it should have felt monumental in STB, but since they'd already done it in each of the previous films, the fact that this one mattered still felt like going back to the same well. It seems like some writers don't realize you can waste those moments going forward, too, and STID poisoned the well for the next film in a lot of ways.

[Beastro]

I maintain that is NOT Kruge's goal, though. I don't think Kruge actually wants to wipe out the Federation.

See that's the thing. The Klingons already could just wipe out the Federation. You have to assume, that If they could get a Genesis missile through the defenses, then they could get an antimatter warhead or even just a kinetic impactor through the lines with equal ability. And remember, just a halfgram of anti-deuterium meeting it's counter-part results in the spontaneous creation of 21 kilotons TNT-equivalent of energy, conviniently roughly the same as the Nagasaki city-buster...

I mean obviously it's down to writer-knowledge and trying to convey a theme, but still

And this is why putting your kids on Starships is a good idea. Because a ship can always fly away when the space based menace shows up, planets and planetbound populations cannot. People say space is dangerous, but space is where we keep all our planets. I say the problem with Next Gen Trek is not that they have some kids and civilians on the Enterprise, but that they don't have more kids and civilians on the Enterprise, along with lots of other ship based civilisations. If there was then Romulan society would still be a thing.

Because that would then destroy the appeal of discovering new exotic lands. Everything would just be new exotic corridors to walk down, which Sci-Fi gets enough of with starships.

This is where the speculative side of Sci-Fi gives way to its ancestral roots, especially with Trek and it's basis in the Age of Sail with crews visiting far flung islands months, or even years, away from home.

If there was then Romulan society would still be a thing.

No, they would if they weren't a square peg rammed into a round hole that is the mixed metaphors of Picard. What happened to the Roms wouldn't destroy their empire, but it would be a sting powerful enough to weaken them, but most importantly, infuriate them setting them ardently against the Federation and not pleading for their aid.

The opperunity there was to make a continuation story following the threads DS9 and Voyager left open decades after the Dominion War where the Roms could finally be the primary antagonists, but no, we have to shove in more refugee and AI as abused slaves messages as if there's a dearth of them in modern Sci-Fi.

[clearspira]

I maintain that is NOT Kruge's goal, though. I don't think Kruge actually wants to wipe out the Federation.

See that's the thing. The Klingons already could just wipe out the Federation. You have to assume, that If they could get a Genesis missile through the defenses, then they could get an antimatter warhead or even just a kinetic impactor through the lines with equal ability. And remember, just a halfgram of anti-deuterium meeting it's counter-part results in the spontaneous creation of 21 kilotons TNT-equivalent of energy, conviniently roughly the same as the Nagasaki city-buster...

I mean obviously it's down to writer-knowledge and trying to convey a theme, but still

And this is why putting your kids on Starships is a good idea. Because a ship can always fly away when the space based menace shows up, planets and planetbound populations cannot. People say space is dangerous, but space is where we keep all our planets. I say the problem with Next Gen Trek is not that they have some kids and civilians on the Enterprise, but that they don't have more kids and civilians on the Enterprise, along with lots of other ship based civilisations. If there was then Romulan society would still be a thing.

Because that would then destroy the appeal of discovering new exotic lands. Everything would just be new exotic corridors to walk down, which Sci-Fi gets enough of with starships.

This is where the speculative side of Sci-Fi gives way to its ancestral roots, especially with Trek and it's basis in the Age of Sail with crews visiting far flung islands months, or even years, away from home.

If there was then Romulan society would still be a thing.

No, they would if they weren't a square peg rammed into a round hole that is the mixed metaphors of Picard. What happened to the Roms wouldn't destroy their empire, but it would be a sting powerful enough to weaken them, but most importantly, infuriate them setting them ardently against the Federation and not pleading for their aid.

The opperunity there was to make a continuation story following the threads DS9 and Voyager left open decades after the Dominion War where the Roms could finally be the primary antagonists, but no, we have to shove in more refugee and AI as abused slaves messages as if there's a dearth of them in modern Sci-Fi.

All I think that Stewart has proven with his Space Brexit analogy is that Brexiteers were right. Letting the Romulans into the Federation seems to have caused nothing but hardship for everyone.

[Link8909]

No, they would if they weren't a square peg rammed into a round hole that is the mixed metaphors of Picard. What happened to the Roms wouldn't destroy their empire, but it would be a sting powerful enough to weaken them, but most importantly, infuriate them setting them ardently against the Federation and not pleading for their aid.

The opperunity there was to make a continuation story following the threads DS9 and Voyager left open decades after the Dominion War where the Roms could finally be the primary antagonists, but no, we have to shove in more refugee and AI as abused slaves messages as if there's a dearth of them in modern Sci-Fi.

All I think that Stewart has proven with his Space Brexit analogy is that Brexiteers were right. Letting the Romulans into the Federation seems to have caused nothing but hardship for everyone.

Except that's not what happened at all, the Federation didn't let the Romulans in, in-fact they didn't want to help the Romulans when the Supernova happened to begin with, and the only reason an evacuation fleet was created was because Admiral Picard twisted their arms into helping them, even at the risk of destabilising the Federation, after all, billions of lives were at risk and Picard felt the Federation was moral obligated to help, even if they were the enemy, which is a very Picard thing to do, and only gave up because of the Mars incident and being sacked from Starfleet and no other way to help, which in the end he deeply regretted.

And personally what we see of the Romulans in Star Trek Picard makes a lot for sense, with he destruction of Romulus and Remus (their Homeworld and primary source of Dilithium) they would focus on maintaining their military rather than helping their civilians, so while we do see a well maintained Fleet, we also see refugees having to fend for themselves, even Star Trek Online (which came out ten years before Star Trek Picard) depicted this state for the Romulans after the Supernova.

And it makes sense that there was this divide in the Federation to begin with, after all the Romulans are long time enemies of the Federation (in-fact the longest) that on multiple occasions have been deceitful and show not to be trusted, much like in The Undiscovered Country and (being it back to) The Search for Spock, the Federation and Klingons didn't trust each other to the point they would conspire together to continue the conflict rather than embrace peace, and even though the Genesis Devise was created for peaceful purposes was see as a Federation weapon of mass destruction in the eyes of the Klingons.

And overall, I don't get this complaint with Star Trek Picard, Picard actions of wanting to help the Romulans are very in character, and Star Trek has always commented on the times in the most unsubtle of ways, after all, the Klingons were an allegory to Communist Russia and the Cold War, and the Genesis Devise can easily be seen as a Nuclear Weapon, and with it is breaking the stalemate between the two factions that would start an arms race, and I'd say that even with he allegory what we see in Star Trek Picard has a broader message of not giving into fear and prejudice, much like what we see in both The Undiscovered Country and The Search for Spock.

[CharlesPhipps]

All I think that Stewart has proven with his Space Brexit analogy is that Brexiteers were right. Letting the Romulans into the Federation seems to have caused nothing but hardship for everyone.

Except not.