Reaching Out Across the Aisle

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Draco Dracul
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Draco Dracul »

Nevix wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:52 am
Draco Dracul wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm
Nevix wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:52 am 1: You're getting hung up on definitions of "Free Market" being "ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS!", when I have repeatedly stated that a free market system needs and works better with reasonable antitrust/anti worker abuse restrictions.
And I'm arguing that not only what you're describing has ceased to be a free market, and instead a mixed market economy, but that you're fundamentally admitting that a free market economy cannot work because it's only able to work when it is shackled. Additionally we can see that 40 years of removing the market's shackles has resulted in a massive increase in income inequality and falling living standards.
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY&vl=en

(Which holds true for many Nordic countries. They get billed as socialist but are free market with large social programs.)
That's what's known as a mixed economy.
When you toss out a corner stone of a religion, what you have left is a separate religion. I believe you worship the same God that I do, much like Jews and Muslims do, but you are no more a Christian than they are.
1 (& 2): Income inequality is meaningless in the presence of Class Mobility.

As long as you have the ability to move up the economic ladder, or fall down if you make mistakes, the divide in wealth totals doesn't matter.

When income inequality matters is when class mobility is low.

Class mobility is at its lowest in socialist/communist/crony economies.
The US has significantly lower social mobility than pretty much all of Europe despite having significantly fewer restrictions on the market. Additionally because the free market naturally accumulates wealth at the top, it will destroy social mobility over time as those at the will have so much money that they can fail time and time again without consequence, like say Donald Trump, while those at the bottom have fewer resources and opportunities giving them almost no chance to rise up.
And a "Mixed economy" is another way of saying "We're not willing to admit that freedom (and the free market) works".

Last of all on this subject:

The Free Market works with a few specific restrictions.

Socialism and communism have ALWAYS failed when implemented.

The Nordic countries are NOT socialist or communist, and are often as free or MORE free than the U.S., regardless of social policies.
And saying the Free Market can only work when restricted is saying that it does not work at all.
3: The argument in the book I linked is that the Trinity is a false doctrine brought on by misinterpretation of the Bible, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God.
That's the kind of heresy that would get you bitch slapped by Santa Claus. You are denying the divinity of Christ, thus are not Christian.
A cornerstone of belief can be false, if arrived at by misinterpretation of scripture.
If a cornerstone belief is false, then the entire structure is worthless.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

The American market is much less taxed than the European Union, its closest economic conglomerate.

Image

https://wir2018.wid.world/files/downloa ... nglish.pdf
..What mirror universe?
Fuzzy Necromancer
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Nevix wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:30 am
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:19 pm
I still maintain what I said before. Attempts were made, but as I suspected, this won't go anywhere. I just hope you don't think this was another stab. I was really, truly trying to connect in good faith, but we're just too far apart.
*Sighs.*

The result feels the same, whether it's deliberate or not.

I can make my points until I'm blue in the face, but they're met with the same dismissals I've heard so many times before.

Not consideration of my points, or an analysis of the policies I champion after about 22 years of being politically aware, but a blanket dismissal.



You HAVE been quite civil here, Fuzzy Necromancer, and I do appreciate that.



We're both people who want to make the world a better place.

We disagree on how.


I just don't know how to even approach a middle ground when the policies I champion are dismissed out of hand so often.
Sorry about that, again. You've been civil too. I don't really see much room for middle ground either.

For what it's worth, if your policies are dismissed out of hand, it's generally because we've already argued about them 300 times before with different people in different contexts.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
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Nevix
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Nevix »

Draco Dracul wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:06 pm
Nevix wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:52 am
Draco Dracul wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm
Nevix wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:52 am 1: You're getting hung up on definitions of "Free Market" being "ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS!", when I have repeatedly stated that a free market system needs and works better with reasonable antitrust/anti worker abuse restrictions.
And I'm arguing that not only what you're describing has ceased to be a free market, and instead a mixed market economy, but that you're fundamentally admitting that a free market economy cannot work because it's only able to work when it is shackled. Additionally we can see that 40 years of removing the market's shackles has resulted in a massive increase in income inequality and falling living standards.
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY&vl=en

(Which holds true for many Nordic countries. They get billed as socialist but are free market with large social programs.)
That's what's known as a mixed economy.
When you toss out a corner stone of a religion, what you have left is a separate religion. I believe you worship the same God that I do, much like Jews and Muslims do, but you are no more a Christian than they are.
1 (& 2): Income inequality is meaningless in the presence of Class Mobility.

As long as you have the ability to move up the economic ladder, or fall down if you make mistakes, the divide in wealth totals doesn't matter.

When income inequality matters is when class mobility is low.

Class mobility is at its lowest in socialist/communist/crony economies.
The US has significantly lower social mobility than pretty much all of Europe despite having significantly fewer restrictions on the market. Additionally because the free market naturally accumulates wealth at the top, it will destroy social mobility over time as those at the will have so much money that they can fail time and time again without consequence, like say Donald Trump, while those at the bottom have fewer resources and opportunities giving them almost no chance to rise up.
And a "Mixed economy" is another way of saying "We're not willing to admit that freedom (and the free market) works".

Last of all on this subject:

The Free Market works with a few specific restrictions.

Socialism and communism have ALWAYS failed when implemented.

The Nordic countries are NOT socialist or communist, and are often as free or MORE free than the U.S., regardless of social policies.
And saying the Free Market can only work when restricted is saying that it does not work at all.
3: The argument in the book I linked is that the Trinity is a false doctrine brought on by misinterpretation of the Bible, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God.
That's the kind of heresy that would get you bitch slapped by Santa Claus. You are denying the divinity of Christ, thus are not Christian.
A cornerstone of belief can be false, if arrived at by misinterpretation of scripture.
If a cornerstone belief is false, then the entire structure is worthless.
1: Class mobility is currently restricted because of the excess of regulations, taxation, and overt anti free market practices used by big business lobbying the big government to both get tax breaks AND to restrict their competition, because taxes are high and government is too large, making the lobbying costs more affordable than just doing business.

2: A car can't be safe without brakes, but the free market can't exist because it requires protections against abuses that were put in place because those abuses happened?

Your position is a fallacy of one flaw negating all good points, regardless of the merit of the whole.

3: Christ the man was tempted and had to live as a man, obedient unto death, following God's will.

Christ the Divine Part of The Trinity is a contradiction, because how can God be the son on the cross and the God Above at the same time? And why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned in Revelations, when Jesus sits at his Father's right hand?

Jesus is divine because he was a man with free will, who CHOSE to fulfill God's role for him, and not a piece of God sent to correct the sins of man.


4: That is why I'm non trinitarian/non denominational.
Draco Dracul
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Draco Dracul »

Nevix wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:19 am
Draco Dracul wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:06 pm
Nevix wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:52 am
Draco Dracul wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm
Nevix wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:52 am 1: You're getting hung up on definitions of "Free Market" being "ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS!", when I have repeatedly stated that a free market system needs and works better with reasonable antitrust/anti worker abuse restrictions.
And I'm arguing that not only what you're describing has ceased to be a free market, and instead a mixed market economy, but that you're fundamentally admitting that a free market economy cannot work because it's only able to work when it is shackled. Additionally we can see that 40 years of removing the market's shackles has resulted in a massive increase in income inequality and falling living standards.
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY&vl=en

(Which holds true for many Nordic countries. They get billed as socialist but are free market with large social programs.)
That's what's known as a mixed economy.
When you toss out a corner stone of a religion, what you have left is a separate religion. I believe you worship the same God that I do, much like Jews and Muslims do, but you are no more a Christian than they are.
1 (& 2): Income inequality is meaningless in the presence of Class Mobility.

As long as you have the ability to move up the economic ladder, or fall down if you make mistakes, the divide in wealth totals doesn't matter.

When income inequality matters is when class mobility is low.

Class mobility is at its lowest in socialist/communist/crony economies.
The US has significantly lower social mobility than pretty much all of Europe despite having significantly fewer restrictions on the market. Additionally because the free market naturally accumulates wealth at the top, it will destroy social mobility over time as those at the will have so much money that they can fail time and time again without consequence, like say Donald Trump, while those at the bottom have fewer resources and opportunities giving them almost no chance to rise up.
And a "Mixed economy" is another way of saying "We're not willing to admit that freedom (and the free market) works".

Last of all on this subject:

The Free Market works with a few specific restrictions.

Socialism and communism have ALWAYS failed when implemented.

The Nordic countries are NOT socialist or communist, and are often as free or MORE free than the U.S., regardless of social policies.
And saying the Free Market can only work when restricted is saying that it does not work at all.
3: The argument in the book I linked is that the Trinity is a false doctrine brought on by misinterpretation of the Bible, and that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God.
That's the kind of heresy that would get you bitch slapped by Santa Claus. You are denying the divinity of Christ, thus are not Christian.
A cornerstone of belief can be false, if arrived at by misinterpretation of scripture.
If a cornerstone belief is false, then the entire structure is worthless.
1: Class mobility is currently restricted because of the excess of regulations, taxation, and overt anti free market practices used by big business lobbying the big government to both get tax breaks AND to restrict their competition, because taxes are high and government is too large, making the lobbying costs more affordable than just doing business.
If regulations were the issue class mobility should have gone up because we've been slashing regulations since the Carter administration, but it turns out lack of regulation doesn't actually help start ups that much because established companies will always have ao much more resources that it's not even funny and cutting regulations allows market leaders to concentrate more wealth. What does help social mobility is social safety nets as robust social safety nets allow average people more opportunities as they can afford to take risks. And even if we assume that regulations play a role, it's much smaller than safety nets as Europe has more regulations and higher social mobility.
2: A car can't be safe without brakes, but the free market can't exist because it requires protections against abuses that were put in place because those abuses happened?

Your position is a fallacy of one flaw negating all good points, regardless of the merit of the whole.
If the fact that Stalinism happened means that socialism can never work the fact that every time we give capitalism even a little slack they commit massive human rights abuses and horde more and more wealth it show that the free market doesn't work as the ability make it anything other than straight up feudalism is dependent on keeping it chained an muzzled.
3: Christ the man was tempted and had to live as a man, obedient unto death, following God's will.
This we agree on, the difference is that Christians believe Jesus was also God the Son.
Christ the Divine Part of The Trinity is a contradiction, because how can God be the son on the cross and the God Above at the same time? And why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned in Revelations, when Jesus sits at his Father's right hand?
Respectively because while the Father and Son are both God, the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit is everywhere.
Jesus is divine because he was a man with free will, who CHOSE to fulfill God's role for him, and not a piece of God sent to correct the sins of man.
So you do believe that any man that chose to fulfill God's role for him would be equally divine?
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Beastro
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Beastro »

Nevix wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:19 am Christ the Divine Part of The Trinity is a contradiction, because how can God be the son on the cross and the God Above at the same time? And why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned in Revelations, when Jesus sits at his Father's right hand?

Jesus is divine because he was a man with free will, who CHOSE to fulfill God's role for him, and not a piece of God sent to correct the sins of man.


4: That is why I'm non trinitarian/non denominational.
And what are you in you? Just the conscious-self or more than that? If you're just the conscious-self, control your unconscious side, or at the very least, stop giving into how it leads you through emotion and the desires and disgusts it lends you (make yourself not simply eat something you find disgusting, but make yourself enjoy it; you can't because that choice in you is beyond your conscious control, at least in the immediacy of the moment, you can only persuade the rest of you to change).

The answer is you are your consciousness and the rest of you, but the conscious-self is the most you part of you. You are an individual within an individual that is a multitude.

The mind is a contradiction and the closest thing I've seen to an example of the Trinity in this world, which comes as no surprised to me keeping in mind that we are made in His image.

The latter bit is the key differing issue here, though. You emphasize a transcendental aspect of Christ that centers around what I'd call an exclusory obsession with free will. I'd say it discounts the fact central to Orthodoxy that man cannot save himself by his very nature and needs God to do that for him. Everything I've seen in the world in my life points to Original Sin and how all is corrupted no matter how solidly it is built by our hands and minds.

I'd call that dangerous for the same timeless reasons surround the human ego and arrogance.

I'd also say your view point severely discounts the determinist side of things. And before you ask, I'm neither a determinist nor a free willer (though I'd call it agency than free will), from what I've seen it's yet another contradiction: There is both determinism and agency in the world. You're dealt cards that are then up to you to play.

And it's Revelation, not plural.
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Nevix »


1: Class mobility is currently restricted because of the excess of regulations, taxation, and overt anti free market practices used by big business lobbying the big government to both get tax breaks AND to restrict their competition, because taxes are high and government is too large, making the lobbying costs more affordable than just doing business.
If regulations were the issue class mobility should have gone up because we've been slashing regulations since the Carter administration, but it turns out lack of regulation doesn't actually help start ups that much because established companies will always have ao much more resources that it's not even funny and cutting regulations allows market leaders to concentrate more wealth. What does help social mobility is social safety nets as robust social safety nets allow average people more opportunities as they can afford to take risks. And even if we assume that regulations play a role, it's much smaller than safety nets as Europe has more regulations and higher social mobility.
2: A car can't be safe without brakes, but the free market can't exist because it requires protections against abuses that were put in place because those abuses happened?

Your position is a fallacy of one flaw negating all good points, regardless of the merit of the whole.
If the fact that Stalinism happened means that socialism can never work the fact that every time we give capitalism even a little slack they commit massive human rights abuses and horde more and more wealth it show that the free market doesn't work as the ability make it anything other than straight up feudalism is dependent on keeping it chained an muzzled.
3: Christ the man was tempted and had to live as a man, obedient unto death, following God's will.
This we agree on, the difference is that Christians believe Jesus was also God the Son.
Christ the Divine Part of The Trinity is a contradiction, because how can God be the son on the cross and the God Above at the same time? And why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned in Revelations, when Jesus sits at his Father's right hand?
Respectively because while the Father and Son are both God, the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit is everywhere.
Jesus is divine because he was a man with free will, who CHOSE to fulfill God's role for him, and not a piece of God sent to correct the sins of man.
So you do believe that any man that chose to fulfill God's role for him would be equally divine?
The economic arguments are getting repetitive.

You've consistently refused to even consider that FREEDOM, the FREE MARKET, is good.

You focus so much on "wealth inequality" that you miss how class mobility is more important, and how regulations restrict newer businesses more.

You also refuse to even consider that regulations protecting against market monopolization that are properly enforced are part of the regulatory protections.

Just drop this part. Neither of us is getting anywhere.



"Respectively because while the Father and Son are both God, the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit is everywhere."

So Jesus IS God but he's NOT God so he's both but not both in this specific instance. The contradiction here is apparent.

And the sins of Man are not redeemed by Man, but instead by God posing as Man. This, even though Jesus traces his lineage back to Adam himself. Lineage matters little if God can just manifest at any time.

The Holy Spirit is also an intercessor between Believers and God, as we cannot speak directly to God and need the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf.


And perhaps there could have been a different person to fulfill Jesus' role, and perhaps not. Speculation on this point is going into the weeds to me, a realm where we're discussing abstracts less important than the main points.
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but Nevix, your approach to theology probably would have gotten you burned at the stake a few centuries ago.
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by Nevix »

Beastro wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:10 amI'd say it discounts the fact central to Orthodoxy that man cannot save himself by his very nature and needs God to do that for him.
This wholly contradicts free will as presented in the Bible. If man cannot save himself, then Jesus' obedience unto death means nothing.

If man cannot save himself, then all of God's efforts to guide mankind to the Godly path were pointless, because He was always going to have to do it himself.

Jesus was only a man, but a man obedient unto death to God's will, who gave us all the opportunity to be redeemed BY OUR OWN CHOICE TO FOLLOW GOD.

But we can't save ourselves, so those choices don't matter, under the line of reasoning you're using.
And it's Revelation, not plural.
Noted.


Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:46 am I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but Nevix, your approach to theology probably would have gotten you burned at the stake a few centuries ago.
Then I am glad I live in modern times.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Reaching Out Across the Aisle

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Nevix wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:19 am1: Class mobility is currently restricted because of the excess of regulations, taxation, and overt anti free market practices used by big business lobbying the big government to both get tax breaks AND to restrict their competition, because taxes are high and government is too large, making the lobbying costs more affordable than just doing business.
Marxist historical assessment on the advent of industrialism and the subsequent proliferation of wage labor economics points to a pretty understandable trend leading to corporatism. Right wing economics allows financial clouds to get hyperbolically cooked up to create power vacuums of wealth. Even the anarchists are conscious of this, like come-on now.

It's only when those national/international financial controls are released or not guarded for in the first case that we have had the two largest depressions in US history. Otherwise the push to globalized corporatism and lax corporate regulations compared to the EU might point to a more robust economy under more free markets, but the inflated corporate costs by ways of either CEOs or public AND private university administrative costs is most apparently not from government regulation meddling.
..What mirror universe?
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