I watched the first two seasons and thought it was alright. Then I just sort of fell out of it, came back and was confused what the heck happened to Tyr, why Andromeda had a crew again, why they lost it again, or why there was a Commonwealth that was now hunting the Andromeda. I could never reorient myself and gave up.
The premise, ironically, is sort of what Chuck wished Voyager would do in his review of "Alliances." Stranded and alone, a lone starship captain tries to knit together an alliance of various races to bring some semblance of peace to a chaotic corner of the universe. This is what some people thought Janeway should be doing!
I liked the contrast between Hunt's history and his situation: A High Guard officer, an elite officer in an organization spanning the entire known universe, ends up alone in a dark age; a sole relic of a lost, glorious past that he's eager to rebuild. The struggle between his own high moral code, which would make sense for a High Guard Officer, and the bitter political necessities he now has to deal with in a post-Commonwealth period were pretty interesting. Some of the races and technologies were fairly innovative, at least, I didn't think they were just re-treads of Star Trek races. No honorable warrior race here!
It's a shame that it ended up going off the rails and having such a high turnover in cast. I think the show actually had potential.
AND: All Too Human
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MadAmosMalone
- Officer
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:16 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
I think the Neitzscheans (sp?) were supposed to be that "proud warrior race" only more pragmatic than Trek's Klingons. Interestingly, the Klingons didn't start off that way. They gradually became "space vikings" over time but that's a discussion for another thread.
I had much the same experience with the show that you did. Watched it, thought it had potential but it wasn't more engaging than "life" at the time. So I missed a few eps, then missed a season or two. Came back and didn't recognize the show. I suspect that may have happened to some viewers of B5 but I wasn't one of them.
I really like your suggestions for the show, and by extension Voyager. I've heard Chuck lament that Voyager is the poster child for wasted potential. That may be why I never got into that show. I could see the opportunities to challenge convention but the show was run by people who just wanted to make TNG season 8. That, too, is probably a discussion for another thread.
I had much the same experience with the show that you did. Watched it, thought it had potential but it wasn't more engaging than "life" at the time. So I missed a few eps, then missed a season or two. Came back and didn't recognize the show. I suspect that may have happened to some viewers of B5 but I wasn't one of them.
I really like your suggestions for the show, and by extension Voyager. I've heard Chuck lament that Voyager is the poster child for wasted potential. That may be why I never got into that show. I could see the opportunities to challenge convention but the show was run by people who just wanted to make TNG season 8. That, too, is probably a discussion for another thread.
Re: AND: All Too Human
I can't take credit for the Voyager suggestion. When Chuck reviewed "Alliances" where Janeway declared how they would never make a deal with a bunch of thugs like the Kazon---you know, before later making a deal with the flippin' BORG--he read a review from The Agony Booth about this episode.
To quote that segment in full:
---
"But, in my opinion, the true death knell of not just Voyager, but the Trek franchise as a whole, was the second season episode “Alliances” (which, in fact, aired the week prior to our current subject, “Threshold”). At this point in the series, they were frequently tangling with the disorganized, mercenary race known as the Kazon. (Who were ultimately revealed to be nothing more than slightly angrier Klingons.)
Captain Janeway began to realize that one, lone ship, stranded this far from Federation space, didn’t stand much of a chance against the Kazon in their lawless, chaotic territory. At the prodding of her senior officers, she began to consider forming an alliance with another species against the Kazon.
This episode had the potential to completely change the series. Instead of a constant barrage of pointless episodes where they find a way home, only to lose it in the last few minutes, the show could have been about Voyager making pacts and trying to form a new federation of sorts. This new federation wouldn’t have been anything like the old one, of course. It would have been far rougher around the edges, and a lot less concerned with doing things by the book.
So what happens at the end of “Alliances”? Voyager’s potential allies end up backstabbing them. Janeway breaks off all negotiations, and makes a pointed speech to her crew about sticking to Starfleet principles, no matter what. And with that, the ship merrily cruised off into the status quo. In retrospect, that was probably the moment the Trek franchise died.
Oh sure, it continued on for nearly ten years after that. Two more seasons of Deep Space Nine, five more seasons of Voyager, four of Enterprise, and even two feature films with the TNG crew. But it was over. Because that speech was the signal that from here on out, no chances would ever be taken with the franchise. It was now Star Trek, Incorporated, and when you tuned into Voyager every week, you knew you were getting the same product, just in slightly different packaging. And no matter what events transpired over the course of the episode, you could rest assured that the ol’ reset button would be pushed in the final five minutes, and everything would go back to the way it was."
---
I think Andromeda, at the start anyway, WAS about building that kind of alliance and all the harsh realities that come with it. But something happened and, yeah, it got screwy.
But if you want a GOOD example of a lone ship in hostile territory trying to broker peace between various factions? Read the Star Trek: Final Frontier series by Peter David, featuring Captain Mackenzie Calhoun of the USS Excalibur. It's just made of win.
To give you a small taste, Admirals Nechayev and Jellico, plus Captain Picard, Commander Riker and Ambassador Spock are meeting with a deposed member of a royal family that ruled the Thallonian Empire which has since collapsed into total chaos and bloodshed, refugees fleeing all over, etc. Lord Si Cwan wants them to send in a fleet to rebuild the empire, which Jellico and Nechayev reject, naturally citing the Prime Directive. Then Riker breaks in with an objection, causing this awesomeness to happen:
---
"Are you saying we should go in there with guns blazing, Commander?" Nechayev said with ill-disguised incredulity.
"No," Riker replied flatly. "Difficult times do not call for extreme measures. But by the same token," and he leaned forward, arms on the table, fingers interlaced tightly, "we are talking about the collapse of an empire. We are, as Lord Cwan said, considering the fate of billions of people. For the Federation response to simply be that of passive observation . . ."
"The Prime Directive . . ." began Jellico.
"The Prime Directive, Admiral, last time I checked, did not first appear on the wall of Starfleet Headquarters in flaming letters accompanied by a sepulchral voice intoning, Thou Shalt Not Butt In,' " Riker said flatly. "It's a guide for day-to-day interaction with developing races so that we don't have umpty-ump Starfleet officers running around playing god by their own rules. But this is not day-today, Admiral. And we're not talking about playing god. We're talking about showing compassion for fellow living beings. Tell me, Admiral, while you were sitting on Deep Space Five waiting for us to show up, did you actually walk around and interact with the refugees? Did you see the misery in their faces, the fear in their eyes? Did you help patch up the wounded, stand by the bedside of the dying, say a prayer for the dead? Or did you sit isolated in your quarters grumbling over the inconvenience?"
---
Riker concludes:
---
"The Prime Directive was created by men and women, no better or worse than any of us, and I respectfully submit that if our hands are tied so completely by it that we sit around impotently, then we have to seriously reconsider what the hell it is we're all about."
---
After that, Spock indicates that he knows someone would've agreed with that. So the meeting ends with Starfleet consenting to send one ship to the region of the former Thallonian Empire to help refugees and step in when needed to help the various races build something sustainable.
THAT is an interesting premise for a series.
To quote that segment in full:
---
"But, in my opinion, the true death knell of not just Voyager, but the Trek franchise as a whole, was the second season episode “Alliances” (which, in fact, aired the week prior to our current subject, “Threshold”). At this point in the series, they were frequently tangling with the disorganized, mercenary race known as the Kazon. (Who were ultimately revealed to be nothing more than slightly angrier Klingons.)
Captain Janeway began to realize that one, lone ship, stranded this far from Federation space, didn’t stand much of a chance against the Kazon in their lawless, chaotic territory. At the prodding of her senior officers, she began to consider forming an alliance with another species against the Kazon.
This episode had the potential to completely change the series. Instead of a constant barrage of pointless episodes where they find a way home, only to lose it in the last few minutes, the show could have been about Voyager making pacts and trying to form a new federation of sorts. This new federation wouldn’t have been anything like the old one, of course. It would have been far rougher around the edges, and a lot less concerned with doing things by the book.
So what happens at the end of “Alliances”? Voyager’s potential allies end up backstabbing them. Janeway breaks off all negotiations, and makes a pointed speech to her crew about sticking to Starfleet principles, no matter what. And with that, the ship merrily cruised off into the status quo. In retrospect, that was probably the moment the Trek franchise died.
Oh sure, it continued on for nearly ten years after that. Two more seasons of Deep Space Nine, five more seasons of Voyager, four of Enterprise, and even two feature films with the TNG crew. But it was over. Because that speech was the signal that from here on out, no chances would ever be taken with the franchise. It was now Star Trek, Incorporated, and when you tuned into Voyager every week, you knew you were getting the same product, just in slightly different packaging. And no matter what events transpired over the course of the episode, you could rest assured that the ol’ reset button would be pushed in the final five minutes, and everything would go back to the way it was."
---
I think Andromeda, at the start anyway, WAS about building that kind of alliance and all the harsh realities that come with it. But something happened and, yeah, it got screwy.
But if you want a GOOD example of a lone ship in hostile territory trying to broker peace between various factions? Read the Star Trek: Final Frontier series by Peter David, featuring Captain Mackenzie Calhoun of the USS Excalibur. It's just made of win.
To give you a small taste, Admirals Nechayev and Jellico, plus Captain Picard, Commander Riker and Ambassador Spock are meeting with a deposed member of a royal family that ruled the Thallonian Empire which has since collapsed into total chaos and bloodshed, refugees fleeing all over, etc. Lord Si Cwan wants them to send in a fleet to rebuild the empire, which Jellico and Nechayev reject, naturally citing the Prime Directive. Then Riker breaks in with an objection, causing this awesomeness to happen:
---
"Are you saying we should go in there with guns blazing, Commander?" Nechayev said with ill-disguised incredulity.
"No," Riker replied flatly. "Difficult times do not call for extreme measures. But by the same token," and he leaned forward, arms on the table, fingers interlaced tightly, "we are talking about the collapse of an empire. We are, as Lord Cwan said, considering the fate of billions of people. For the Federation response to simply be that of passive observation . . ."
"The Prime Directive . . ." began Jellico.
"The Prime Directive, Admiral, last time I checked, did not first appear on the wall of Starfleet Headquarters in flaming letters accompanied by a sepulchral voice intoning, Thou Shalt Not Butt In,' " Riker said flatly. "It's a guide for day-to-day interaction with developing races so that we don't have umpty-ump Starfleet officers running around playing god by their own rules. But this is not day-today, Admiral. And we're not talking about playing god. We're talking about showing compassion for fellow living beings. Tell me, Admiral, while you were sitting on Deep Space Five waiting for us to show up, did you actually walk around and interact with the refugees? Did you see the misery in their faces, the fear in their eyes? Did you help patch up the wounded, stand by the bedside of the dying, say a prayer for the dead? Or did you sit isolated in your quarters grumbling over the inconvenience?"
---
Riker concludes:
---
"The Prime Directive was created by men and women, no better or worse than any of us, and I respectfully submit that if our hands are tied so completely by it that we sit around impotently, then we have to seriously reconsider what the hell it is we're all about."
---
After that, Spock indicates that he knows someone would've agreed with that. So the meeting ends with Starfleet consenting to send one ship to the region of the former Thallonian Empire to help refugees and step in when needed to help the various races build something sustainable.
THAT is an interesting premise for a series.
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SuccubusYuri
- Officer
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:21 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
Andromeda reviews? You're in my dojo now, mothafuckaaaaaaaaaa-
As someone who has studied and researched this extensively since the series aired and still had AOL chats with creative crews xD
The big shift is mid-S2, "Ouroboros". Wolfe explained later how "the suits" (because there were three companies with power over Andromeda all fighting for influence over it) wanted more sex, less "confusing plot". In fact, in Ouroboros, Trance gets a makeover because they outright told him if she wasn't fap-material, they would kill her off as soon as he was canned. So in his final episode he had to macguffin the costume change on the off chance he could save one of his more beloved creations. And I do mean beloved, when Wolfe later wrote Coda (his fanfic to explain where his series was going, which you absolutely should read if you had any affection for the show) it only features Trance and Harper because they were his favorites.
And also, they wanted more focus on Dylan as the ubermensch. Lots of late season 2 episodes pretty lazily write Dylan into the scripts as hasty re-writes, and if you're looking for it, it is glaringly obvious. Such as when Beka goes to her ex-boyfriend with Harper. Why does Dylan tag along? Reasons. Some of his dialogue in "dance of the mayflies" is also pretty shamelessly lifted from Harper, so that Dylan can be the one to solve the crisis, not someone else.
As for the space battles, Wolfe has admitted he got blindsided. It was his first crack at being a showrunner and he didn't fully appreciate the budget problems he was going to have. Andromeda had a budget roughly $900k-$1mil an episode. Which is maybe 150k higher than Babylon 5 did, a show legendary for being on the cheap, but because of the high overhead, their "flexible" budget was only about half that of B5. This is why the best space combat episode is "Angel Dark, Demon Bright", it was early enough in Season 1 they hadnt started to cut back.
Also, a lot of that overhead, was called the "Kevin Sorbo Tax" by the less diplomatically-inclined. Apparently his contract was literally squeezing the show. Which didn't help when they added Tyr to the cast at the last second (Beka was originally going to be the Neitzchean)
As someone who has studied and researched this extensively since the series aired and still had AOL chats with creative crews xD
The big shift is mid-S2, "Ouroboros". Wolfe explained later how "the suits" (because there were three companies with power over Andromeda all fighting for influence over it) wanted more sex, less "confusing plot". In fact, in Ouroboros, Trance gets a makeover because they outright told him if she wasn't fap-material, they would kill her off as soon as he was canned. So in his final episode he had to macguffin the costume change on the off chance he could save one of his more beloved creations. And I do mean beloved, when Wolfe later wrote Coda (his fanfic to explain where his series was going, which you absolutely should read if you had any affection for the show) it only features Trance and Harper because they were his favorites.
And also, they wanted more focus on Dylan as the ubermensch. Lots of late season 2 episodes pretty lazily write Dylan into the scripts as hasty re-writes, and if you're looking for it, it is glaringly obvious. Such as when Beka goes to her ex-boyfriend with Harper. Why does Dylan tag along? Reasons. Some of his dialogue in "dance of the mayflies" is also pretty shamelessly lifted from Harper, so that Dylan can be the one to solve the crisis, not someone else.
As for the space battles, Wolfe has admitted he got blindsided. It was his first crack at being a showrunner and he didn't fully appreciate the budget problems he was going to have. Andromeda had a budget roughly $900k-$1mil an episode. Which is maybe 150k higher than Babylon 5 did, a show legendary for being on the cheap, but because of the high overhead, their "flexible" budget was only about half that of B5. This is why the best space combat episode is "Angel Dark, Demon Bright", it was early enough in Season 1 they hadnt started to cut back.
Also, a lot of that overhead, was called the "Kevin Sorbo Tax" by the less diplomatically-inclined. Apparently his contract was literally squeezing the show. Which didn't help when they added Tyr to the cast at the last second (Beka was originally going to be the Neitzchean)
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SuccubusYuri
- Officer
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:21 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
Comments for this episode in particular; I can appreciate Chuck's opinion of Rommie in this episode as a purely stand alone. In the greater scope he does come off a little harsh, I think. There were a lot of episodes in Wolfe's Andromeda that were focused on what made AI, AI. I think that Rommie's harshness IS intentional. They emphasize regularly that she is a warship, and her personality is meant to not question a lot of her orders AS a warship. It also dovetails with the other subplot that WAS building in season 2 but left alone, nickname, "you know the Vedran Commonwealth was pretty fucked up, right?". Though the only bit of that plot that remains in the series proper is the one brilliant conversation with Tyr in "The Fair Unknown".
This episode, more than any other I think, is one that showcases Andromeda's anime influence, of which Wolfe was not shy influenced him a lot. Which is probably why a fucking weeb like me loves it so xD
This episode, more than any other I think, is one that showcases Andromeda's anime influence, of which Wolfe was not shy influenced him a lot. Which is probably why a fucking weeb like me loves it so xD
Re: AND: All Too Human
Sir Will wrote:It went downhill when they fired the original head guy and went in a different direction. Changed Trance, played up Dylan (I hear Sorbo had a lot of sway which would explain that. I think the man's ego makes Shatner look tame by comparison).
Dunno, he's yet to feud with half the people he's worked with....
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Madner Kami
- Captain
- Posts: 4045
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:35 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
Instead he believes that Hollywood hampers his career because he's a christian and that atheists should not touch religious subjects in art. Oh and, of course, the jews are behind it.Ghilz wrote:Dunno, he's yet to feud with half the people he's worked with....Sir Will wrote:It went downhill when they fired the original head guy and went in a different direction. Changed Trance, played up Dylan (I hear Sorbo had a lot of sway which would explain that. I think the man's ego makes Shatner look tame by comparison).
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
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Aotrs Commander
- Officer
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:03 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
So, there WAS a reason Andromeda tailed off mid-season two. Huh. You learn sommat new every day.SuccubusYuri wrote:Andromeda reviews? You're in my dojo now, mothafuckaaaaaaaaaa-
As someone who has studied and researched this extensively since the series aired and still had AOL chats with creative crews xD
The big shift is mid-S2, "Ouroboros". Wolfe explained later how "the suits" (because there were three companies with power over Andromeda all fighting for influence over it) wanted more sex, less "confusing plot". In fact, in Ouroboros, Trance gets a makeover because they outright told him if she wasn't fap-material, they would kill her off as soon as he was canned. So in his final episode he had to macguffin the costume change on the off chance he could save one of his more beloved creations. And I do mean beloved, when Wolfe later wrote Coda (his fanfic to explain where his series was going, which you absolutely should read if you had any affection for the show) it only features Trance and Harper because they were his favorites.
And also, they wanted more focus on Dylan as the ubermensch. Lots of late season 2 episodes pretty lazily write Dylan into the scripts as hasty re-writes, and if you're looking for it, it is glaringly obvious. Such as when Beka goes to her ex-boyfriend with Harper. Why does Dylan tag along? Reasons. Some of his dialogue in "dance of the mayflies" is also pretty shamelessly lifted from Harper, so that Dylan can be the one to solve the crisis, not someone else.
As for the space battles, Wolfe has admitted he got blindsided. It was his first crack at being a showrunner and he didn't fully appreciate the budget problems he was going to have. Andromeda had a budget roughly $900k-$1mil an episode. Which is maybe 150k higher than Babylon 5 did, a show legendary for being on the cheap, but because of the high overhead, their "flexible" budget was only about half that of B5. This is why the best space combat episode is "Angel Dark, Demon Bright", it was early enough in Season 1 they hadnt started to cut back.
Also, a lot of that overhead, was called the "Kevin Sorbo Tax" by the less diplomatically-inclined. Apparently his contract was literally squeezing the show. Which didn't help when they added Tyr to the cast at the last second (Beka was originally going to be the Neitzchean)
Fascinating. (Will totally be reading the aforelinked script next.) And very depressing.
(Seriously, he had to change Trance because she wasn't "fap material" (sic) in her original [1]form? Okay... I might be the absolute LAST person to have any authority on that particular subject but...
Beg pardon?
I... Well. I think it is safe to say whoever implied that had never actually interacted with any fandoms, ever. (Unsurprisingly.)
...
Actually, even leaving ASIDE the whole horrendously exist issue of "fab material" in the first place, I'm actually sort of offended on Purple Trance's behalf. )
[1]Better, from my own idiosyncratic perception.
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SuccubusYuri
- Officer
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:21 pm
Re: AND: All Too Human
Well, to observe their mentality you just need to watch season 3 when the costume changes were trying REALLY hard to be Farscape.
But yeah if they better understood fandom you'd definitely wanna hit more of the archetype boxes. xD It's also very sad because "Dance of Mayflies" was pushed to post-Ouroboros, and that episode would have been MUCH more impactful with purple-Trance.
But yeah if they better understood fandom you'd definitely wanna hit more of the archetype boxes. xD It's also very sad because "Dance of Mayflies" was pushed to post-Ouroboros, and that episode would have been MUCH more impactful with purple-Trance.
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Fuzzy Necromancer
- Overlord
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- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:57 am
Re: AND: All Too Human
Severed cock of Dionysus, they REALLY had an issue with purple Trance? A friggin can of body paint is too "unsexy" for your SPACE ALIEN character? x_X
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
