B5: A Late Delivery From Avalon

[Ixthos]

I liked this episode a lot, and I've always enjoyed Arthurian tales. I agree with Chuck, this could have made a great miniature arc. I think discussing Arthur and Delenn's twin roles in the conflict would have been interesting, but as it wasn't touched on by the episode itself I can see it being left out.

Something that I've always wondered in episodes like this, and like in Devil's Due on Star Trek TNG, is what would have happened if the figure wasn't mistaken or lying, but actually was who they claimed they were - what would B5 be like if Arthur actually were alive and active on the station?

[CrypticMirror]

I gotta say, Dr Franklin was pretty bone-headed in this one, although maybe that was the point. If you could cure mental illness just by proving to somebody their delusions are false, therapists and psychologists would be out of a job.

Depending on the type of mental illness, in this case extreme PTSD, having the patient confront their delusions is the first step to actually helping them to cope and move past them. Franklin is right, sort of, but the show down plays the long period of follow up care that will be needed afterwards. Therapists and psychologists are part of that long term follow up.

Now if we want our ass for this episode, Garibaldi is just the absolute worst. Given that the post office is gonna be essential to keeping the B5 economy functioning, his fucking with it for his personal gain and abusing his power of his office is just the worst. It is completely reasonable that postage fees will increase due to the difficulties in now keeping the post flowing, and if Sheridan [and it is Sheridan's responsibility as the new absolute monarch of B5], isn't gonna cough up for it then the customers are gonna have to [forgive the pun] eat the cost. That post office guy is really going above and beyond in his duties just to keep it open. Garibaldi could easily have just caused him to give up there and then and repatriate himself back to Earth leaving the station with no postal service at all. He is banking on the postal service guy caring more about the residents and functioning of the station than Garibaldi, the chief of security, does. Fucking cops man, they never change.

[Rocketboy1313]

I often conflate this episode with the David Warner episode.
King Arthur, the Holy Grail, prominent British actors who are almost the same age and both frequent players in genre fiction. Almost surprised this was not a direct sequel to Grail.

[A_Really_Big_Cat]

Ahhhhhh Chuck's amateur delve into linguistic history pained me physically, so for posterity I'll point out that what he described as Middle English is not; rather it's Early Modern English, as used by Shakespeare. Middle English was spoken from around 1200-1500 AD and had pronunciation more similar to Old English despite having grammar more similar (but still different) to Modern English. The Canterbury Tales is the archetypal example of Middle English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T1t6zfF9yU

In addition, while the description of Old English is spot on, King Arthur is legendary for having fought against the Anglo-Saxons that were then migrating to Britain, and would not have spoken Old English himself if he existed. Rather he would have spoken a mix of Vulgar Latin and Common Brittonic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brittonic

[cdrood]

I gotta say, Dr Franklin was pretty bone-headed in this one, although maybe that was the point. If you could cure mental illness just by proving to somebody their delusions are false, therapists and psychologists would be out of a job.

Depending on the type of mental illness, in this case extreme PTSD, having the patient confront their delusions is the first step to actually helping them to cope and move past them. Franklin is right, sort of, but the show down plays the long period of follow up care that will be needed afterwards. Therapists and psychologists are part of that long term follow up.

Now if we want our ass for this episode, Garibaldi is just the absolute worst. Given that the post office is gonna be essential to keeping the B5 economy functioning, his fucking with it for his personal gain and abusing his power of his office is just the worst. It is completely reasonable that postage fees will increase due to the difficulties in now keeping the post flowing, and if Sheridan [and it is Sheridan's responsibility as the new absolute monarch of B5], isn't gonna cough up for it then the customers are gonna have to [forgive the pun] eat the cost. That post office guy is really going above and beyond in his duties just to keep it open. Garibaldi could easily have just caused him to give up there and then and repatriate himself back to Earth leaving the station with no postal service at all. He is banking on the postal service guy caring more about the residents and functioning of the station than Garibaldi, the chief of security, does. Fucking cops man, they never change.

Yeah, but the post office is going to be dependent on the good graces of Garibaldi's security team to operate and keep people from storming the office and just taking stuff. So, pissing him off over bureaucratic nonsense was an equally bad move.

[cdrood]

My neighborhood was one of the first to get cable in the late 70's. Pretty much the first movie I ever saw on HBO was The Four Musketeers, starring Michael York. For those who don't know. They made the closest thing to a faithful adaptation of The Three Musketeers and split it into two movies since it was so long. It's directed by Richard Lester, so there's a bit more comedy than one would expect, but it's a good pair of movies, with some legendary actors in it.

Anyway, I was around 9 and combining it with Logan's Run a gave me special place in my heart for Michael York. Him playing King Arthur, even as a delusion, just seems right. As you say, it's not essential to the big plot, but it's a great character piece and gives a good reminder of what war can do to people, both good and bad. It ends on a message of hope, which actually is essential to the characters.

I even like the way they cut from Franklin & Marcus wondering about The Lady of the Lake and the cut to Delenn. It's a great example brevity. Some might have had a scene of theme going to Delenn and asking for help, but that was unnecessary. Given her character as we knew it at this point, there's no way she'd say no. Given what we learn later, we know she's coming from a very similar place as Arthur/David and probably understands what he's going through better than anyone else alive. She probably feels directly responsible for his pain since he was a low level soldier unaware of the situation doing what his captain ordered. She was on the Grey Council.

[CrypticMirror]

I gotta say, Dr Franklin was pretty bone-headed in this one, although maybe that was the point. If you could cure mental illness just by proving to somebody their delusions are false, therapists and psychologists would be out of a job.

Depending on the type of mental illness, in this case extreme PTSD, having the patient confront their delusions is the first step to actually helping them to cope and move past them. Franklin is right, sort of, but the show down plays the long period of follow up care that will be needed afterwards. Therapists and psychologists are part of that long term follow up.

Now if we want our ass for this episode, Garibaldi is just the absolute worst. Given that the post office is gonna be essential to keeping the B5 economy functioning, his fucking with it for his personal gain and abusing his power of his office is just the worst. It is completely reasonable that postage fees will increase due to the difficulties in now keeping the post flowing, and if Sheridan [and it is Sheridan's responsibility as the new absolute monarch of B5], isn't gonna cough up for it then the customers are gonna have to [forgive the pun] eat the cost. That post office guy is really going above and beyond in his duties just to keep it open. Garibaldi could easily have just caused him to give up there and then and repatriate himself back to Earth leaving the station with no postal service at all. He is banking on the postal service guy caring more about the residents and functioning of the station than Garibaldi, the chief of security, does. Fucking cops man, they never change.

Yeah, but the post office is going to be dependent on the good graces of Garibaldi's security team to operate and keep people from storming the office and just taking stuff. So, pissing him off over bureaucratic nonsense was an equally bad move.

You shouldn't have to appease the cops in order for them to do the very basic definition of their jobs. The post office is vital to BabFive, so Garibaldi should have to work hard for it. Not the other way around.

Also, it wasn't bureaucratic nonsense, it was "this is how much it now costs to ship things here". Other customers are now gonna have to pay extra, because of Garabaldi abusing his office to rip a public utility off, in order to keep that utility running. Garabaldi just ripped off the entirety of the BabFive population there. I might feel a twinge of sympathy if he wasn't part of the core group that precipitated the break from Earth, but he was part of the group that put the Post Office in the situation of needing to find different and more expensive [not to mention potentially more dangerous ways, for their intermediaries who are now smugglers, and for the postal office worker's own safety if Clarke were to end up winning their little kerfuffle] ways of getting deliveries, so if anyone should be eating the full cost of the changes they themselves wrought then it is Garibaldi.

[Mindworm]

The "thine" and "thou" is more early Modern English than Middle English.

And Arthur would not have spoken Old English. He would have spoken a pre-English British language, as the Anglo-Saxon invasion which brought English to the island basically closed out Arthur's reign.

As a higher up he'd likely have been a native Latin speaker but also able to speak in whatever dialect of the Brittonic Insular Celtic his tribe spoke at that time.

English didn't make an appearance as a language until about the 7th century CE (in Frisia, hence why English is most closely related to Frisian).

[Nealithi]

I gotta say, Dr Franklin was pretty bone-headed in this one, although maybe that was the point. If you could cure mental illness just by proving to somebody their delusions are false, therapists and psychologists would be out of a job.

Depending on the type of mental illness, in this case extreme PTSD, having the patient confront their delusions is the first step to actually helping them to cope and move past them. Franklin is right, sort of, but the show down plays the long period of follow up care that will be needed afterwards. Therapists and psychologists are part of that long term follow up.

Now if we want our ass for this episode, Garibaldi is just the absolute worst. Given that the post office is gonna be essential to keeping the B5 economy functioning, his fucking with it for his personal gain and abusing his power of his office is just the worst. It is completely reasonable that postage fees will increase due to the difficulties in now keeping the post flowing, and if Sheridan [and it is Sheridan's responsibility as the new absolute monarch of B5], isn't gonna cough up for it then the customers are gonna have to [forgive the pun] eat the cost. That post office guy is really going above and beyond in his duties just to keep it open. Garibaldi could easily have just caused him to give up there and then and repatriate himself back to Earth leaving the station with no postal service at all. He is banking on the postal service guy caring more about the residents and functioning of the station than Garibaldi, the chief of security, does. Fucking cops man, they never change.

Yeah, but the post office is going to be dependent on the good graces of Garibaldi's security team to operate and keep people from storming the office and just taking stuff. So, pissing him off over bureaucratic nonsense was an equally bad move.

You shouldn't have to appease the cops in order for them to do the very basic definition of their jobs. The post office is vital to BabFive, so Garibaldi should have to work hard for it. Not the other way around.

Also, it wasn't bureaucratic nonsense, it was "this is how much it now costs to ship things here". Other customers are now gonna have to pay extra, because of Garabaldi abusing his office to rip a public utility off, in order to keep that utility running. Garabaldi just ripped off the entirety of the BabFive population there. I might feel a twinge of sympathy if he wasn't part of the core group that precipitated the break from Earth, but he was part of the group that put the Post Office in the situation of needing to find different and more expensive [not to mention potentially more dangerous ways, for their intermediaries who are now smugglers, and for the postal office worker's own safety if Clarke were to end up winning their little kerfuffle] ways of getting deliveries, so if anyone should be eating the full cost of the changes they themselves wrought then it is Garibaldi.

Just my two cents here. But a few notes. You may not need to appease the police to get your deserved protection. But it is also wise not to deliberately tick them off either. So go mutual wrong there.
The package comes off as a bait and switch. IE things had to be paid in advance to ship them. Then at the end is a very sudden delivery fee. Sounds like extortion. Then the post master there pulls a stunt to trick Garibaldi into getting his hands off his package and whisks it to the back and dismisses him. Thus setting the stage for the Looney Tunes escapades.
As for them pointing out the rent on rooms. Earth Force kicked the CO and XO out of their quarters because they wanted them to pay rent. At their own duty station. Not they were going to rent those quarters to anyone else. But just fork over extra cash. So Earth Gov is notorious for this kind of extortion and requires the local staff to come up with inane ways to have their own bunk to sleep in.

[Rocketboy1313]

Anyway, I was around 9 and combining it with Logan's Run a gave me special place in my heart for Michael York. Him playing King Arthur, even as a delusion, just seems right. As you say, it's not essential to the big plot, but it's a great character piece and gives a good reminder of what war can do to people, both good and bad. It ends on a message of hope, which actually is essential to the characters.

The last thing I found a Michael York performance in was the audiobook of "A Brave New World". His performance is good and (to me) the book is bad.

He is a good actor.