Las Vegas shooting

[LittleRaven]

So can we please implement the kind of very BASIC legislation that our fellow countries implement so mass shootings aren't such a regular occurrence that even observations ABOUT their regularity and the lack of meaningful change of become tired and cliche?

As long as you don't run afoul of this, sure.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However, the Supreme Court has routinely and repeatedly ruled that the Second Amendment should be interpreted broadly. Which is going to really limit what you can do legally, unless you can force a Constitutional Amendment through. (unlikely)

Besides...technology is on the cusp of making this argument moot. You can already buy a machine that will turn a block of aluminum into an AR lower, and this kind of thing is only going to get more sophisticated and cheaper - that's the nature of the technological beast. So your best bet long term is going to be to try and change the culture. But that's going to be a very, VERY long fight.

[excalibur]

The problem with thinking that "Mass Shootings" are a "regular" occurrence is a bit of a misconception. They account for a tiny fraction of actual crimes that involves guns in America yet when they happen, they are covered by 100% of the media. Yes, if you want numbers, 58 dead now and over 400 reported injured but that's just this one instance which from all accounts, absolutely unpreventable even with newer laws because of how ingrained guns are in America, but then you look at gang related homicides in Chicago alone that's reached over 700 before the year is even half over and yet we get little to no coverage of that with the majority of those deaths due to illegal guns obtained by gang members. That's on top of Chicago being one of the strictest gun control cities in America but with the highest crimes related to guns. That alone tells you that gun laws do not work the way you want. But unlike a random act of violence like this shooting in Vegas that doesn't seemed preventable, gang crimes are.

My honest opinion is that laws affect the masses because generally they are law abiding people, but they do not affect the ONE crazy person. You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing laws that assume they are not insane.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

As someone used a rental truck from the company I work for to run over people Saturday night the intention to do harm to others does seem to be the core of the issue. The real world expression of the power fantasy of just murdering a great many people in a public places strikes me as a bona fide mental health AND cultural problem.

Cultural problem? How does the culture mainstream or otherwise endorses this sort of action?

White boys who kill lots of people get romanticized as bad boy anti-hero "lone wolf" figures, as far as cultural problems go.

Intention to do harm isn't the core of the issue. The core is how easy our shitty laws make it to do that harm on a massive scale. You can shoot a lot of people with an automatic weapon a lot faster than you can run them over or stab them to death.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

So can we please implement the kind of very BASIC legislation that our fellow countries implement so mass shootings aren't such a regular occurrence that even observations ABOUT their regularity and the lack of meaningful change of become tired and cliche?

As long as you don't run afoul of this, sure.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However, the Supreme Court has routinely and repeatedly ruled that the Second Amendment should be interpreted broadly. Which is going to really limit what you can do legally, unless you can force a Constitutional Amendment through. (unlikely)

Besides...technology is on the cusp of making this argument moot. You can already buy a machine that will turn a block of aluminum into an AR lower, and this kind of thing is only going to get more sophisticated and cheaper - that's the nature of the technological beast. So your best bet long term is going to be to try and change the culture. But that's going to be a very, VERY long fight.

You want a Well Regulated Militia? We got one. It's called the Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marines.

As far as stopping a tyrranical government, well, not even lots of repeat-fire guns will stop that. A few well-timed drone strikes will turn an entire rebellious neighborhood into a fine layer of interesting soil enrichment.

You want to bear arms? Get a musket which can, with some skill and practice, fire a single lead ball about twenty feet every few minutes.

I'm sick and tired of countless innocent lives being treated as acceptable losses for a damn stupid amendment.

For frell's sake, it even says WELL-REGULATED, which we have appparently taken to mean ANY regulation of ANY kind is an unpardonable sin!

We are the ONLY civilized country where this happens on a regular basis. There's your American Exceptionalism.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

The problem with thinking that "Mass Shootings" are a "regular" occurrence is a bit of a misconception. They account for a tiny fraction of actual crimes that involves guns in America yet when they happen, they are covered by 100% of the media. Yes, if you want numbers, 58 dead now and over 400 reported injured but that's just this one instance which from all accounts, absolutely unpreventable even with newer laws because of how ingrained guns are in America, but then you look at gang related homicides in Chicago alone that's reached over 700 before the year is even half over and yet we get little to no coverage of that with the majority of those deaths due to illegal guns obtained by gang members. That's on top of Chicago being one of the strictest gun control cities in America but with the highest crimes related to guns. That alone tells you that gun laws do not work the way you want. But unlike a random act of violence like this shooting in Vegas that doesn't seemed preventable, gang crimes are.

My honest opinion is that laws affect the masses because generally they are law abiding people, but they do not affect the ONE crazy person. You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing laws that assume they are not insane.

That old chesnut. "Don't bother regulating dangerous things, because criminals and crazy people break the law anyway."

Most of our mass shooters are horribly, unfathomably, sane. They just honestly believe, as a matter of moral conviction, that lots of people need to die, because "women can get away with being sluts" or because "there's a coming racial holy war".

But let's logically extend that premise. Why regulate drugs? Criminals will shoot up anyway. Cheaters will dope sports stars anyway. Why regulate nukes? If we outlaw tactical warheads, then only outlaws will have tactical warheads!

Why is gun control the ONLY case where people argue the fact that a law is sometimes broken is an argument for not legislating ANY kind of control whatsoever?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Here's the core, deep reason the second amendment is enshrined in electrum and holy water:

Every other varblenecking klorbag in this gods-abandoned country has a private Rambo fantasy. This people lead dull, stressful lives, but they dream that SOME DAY, whether it's after the robot holocaust or when the Big Gummint comes ot Take Away Their Guns, they will turn into a frelling action hero, and the thought of not having enough magazines to take out a children's choir and a small concert afterwards is intolerable to them. How will they kill all the nameless evil henchmen if they don't?
These people banded together, took control of the NRA, bankroll our congressmen, and now it's a party of the holy far-right culture which must be protected at any cost because the goll-durn liberals oppose it.

That's why children have to do active shooter drills in our classrooms, and not in the UK classrooms or Australian classrooms or Japanese classrooms. That's why every time I walk into a movie theater I wonder if it will be my last.

[Karha of Honor]

As someone used a rental truck from the company I work for to run over people Saturday night the intention to do harm to others does seem to be the core of the issue. The real world expression of the power fantasy of just murdering a great many people in a public places strikes me as a bona fide mental health AND cultural problem.

Cultural problem? How does the culture mainstream or otherwise endorses this sort of action?

White boys who kill lots of people get romanticized as bad boy anti-hero "lone wolf" figures, as far as cultural problems go.

Intention to do harm isn't the core of the issue. The core is how easy our shitty laws make it to do that harm on a massive scale. You can shoot a lot of people with an automatic weapon a lot faster than you can run them over or stab them to death.

indian movies do it, Frencjh movies do it, Korean movies do it i utterly fail what the fuck color got to do with it.
Rent a truck and you got your mass murder weapon.

it's a giant country, there will be some firefights and the police is running wild in some cases and on some issues.

"Some". Yeahright. They are probably not comitting as many crimes as the entirety of the criminal underworld in the US, but they are right up there, along with Senators and Don Vito Corleone.

The idea that a few real life firefights involving police lead to mass shooters feeling empowered is nonsense.

I can't remember having written that, so where are you taking that from? My point was, that in a country where the police can arrest you for having done nothing, can permanently confiscate whatever they want without ever having to give it back even if you have done nothing wrong and kill people almost at will for the flimsiest of excuses and can get away with that almost always, is rotten to the core and one only needs to look back to last month, when Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio, to see that there's an institutional problem. You know the country and society as a whole fucked up royally, when the gun-tooting nut-crackers who defend their right to bear arms by saying that they need them to defend themselves from their own government, have an actual valid point.

The US has real violence problem? It cetainly does not prevent people from seeing it as a tourist destination or one for immigration. So it must be more than tolerable.

People tour North Korea. Your point? That people emigrate to the US from countries were things are even worse, doesn't show that all is golden in the US either. The hopes and expectations of people rarely are congruent with the actual reality.

I would rather be protected by police tham the mob thanks.

The founders foresaw the nt crackers having a point.

The US has a better track record with both tourists and immigrants. It is fucking golden compared to most of human history anywhere. How do you define the hopes of others?

Every other varblenecking klorbag in this gods-abandoned country has a private Rambo fantasy.[/b] This people lead dull, stressful lives, but they dream that SOME DAY, whether it's after the robot holocaust or when the Big Gummint comes ot Take Away Their Guns, they will turn into a frelling action hero, and the thought of not having enough magazines to take out a children's choir and a small concert afterwards is intolerable to them. How will they kill all the nameless evil henchmen if they don't?
These people banded together, took control of the NRA, bankroll our congressmen, and now it's a party of the holy far-right culture which must be protected at any cost because the goll-durn liberals oppose it.

That's why children have to do active shooter drills in our classrooms, and not in the UK classrooms or Australian classrooms or Japanese classrooms. That's why every time I walk into a movie theater I wonder if it will be my last.

And if the right would want to take away the second they would also be opposed.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Excuse me, I need to do some screaming before I return to this debate in a frame of mind suitable for civlized debate.

[LittleRaven]

You want a Well Regulated Militia? We got one. It's called the Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marines.

I'm not the one you have to convince here. That would be these fine folks. The good news is that you'll be in good company - many fine legal minds are on your side. The bad news is that so far, they haven't been buying what you're selling. But that could change.

I'm sick and tired of countless innocent lives being treated as acceptable losses for a damn stupid amendment.

Clearly. But that just means you have a goal to shoot for. The Constitution is not scripture. It can be changed. It's not easy to change, but it's not impossible either.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

As someone used a rental truck from the company I work for to run over people Saturday night the intention to do harm to others does seem to be the core of the issue. The real world expression of the power fantasy of just murdering a great many people in a public places strikes me as a bona fide mental health AND cultural problem.

Cultural problem? How does the culture mainstream or otherwise endorses this sort of action?

White boys who kill lots of people get romanticized as bad boy anti-hero "lone wolf" figures, as far as cultural problems go.

Intention to do harm isn't the core of the issue. The core is how easy our shitty laws make it to do that harm on a massive scale. You can shoot a lot of people with an automatic weapon a lot faster than you can run them over or stab them to death.

indian movies do it, Frencjh movies do it, Korean movies do it i utterly fail what the fuck color got to do with it.
Rent a truck and you got your mass murder weapon.

I'm not talking about movies. I'm talking about News Reports. Every time a white guy shoots up a bunch of people, you can't swing a dead cat without hearing about how intelligent and sensitive he was, without seeing a shot of him smiling and being nice, hearing about his backstory, describing him as a troubled genius and lone wolf and basically anything they can do that will humanize and glamorize him rather than taking the advice of experts in the field and simply referring to him as "the _location_ shooter".

it's a giant country, there will be some firefights and the police is running wild in some cases and on some issues.

"Some". Yeahright. They are probably not comitting as many crimes as the entirety of the criminal underworld in the US, but they are right up there, along with Senators and Don Vito Corleone.

The idea that a few real life firefights involving police lead to mass shooters feeling empowered is nonsense.

I can't remember having written that, so where are you taking that from? My point was, that in a country where the police can arrest you for having done nothing, can permanently confiscate whatever they want without ever having to give it back even if you have done nothing wrong and kill people almost at will for the flimsiest of excuses and can get away with that almost always, is rotten to the core and one only needs to look back to last month, when Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio, to see that there's an institutional problem. You know the country and society as a whole fucked up royally, when the gun-tooting nut-crackers who defend their right to bear arms by saying that they need them to defend themselves from their own government, have an actual valid point.

The US has real violence problem? It cetainly does not prevent people from seeing it as a tourist destination or one for immigration. So it must be more than tolerable.

Every other varblenecking klorbag in this gods-abandoned country has a private Rambo fantasy.[/b] This people lead dull, stressful lives, but they dream that SOME DAY, whether it's after the robot holocaust or when the Big Gummint comes ot Take Away Their Guns, they will turn into a frelling action hero, and the thought of not having enough magazines to take out a children's choir and a small concert afterwards is intolerable to them. How will they kill all the nameless evil henchmen if they don't?
These people banded together, took control of the NRA, bankroll our congressmen, and now it's a party of the holy far-right culture which must be protected at any cost because the goll-durn liberals oppose it.

That's why children have to do active shooter drills in our classrooms, and not in the UK classrooms or Australian classrooms or Japanese classrooms. That's why every time I walk into a movie theater I wonder if it will be my last.

And if the right would want to take away the second they would also be opposed.

What are you saying. That this is another "both sides are equally at fault" issue?

Why do we keep talking as if a real solution is IMPOSSIBLE when there are other major nations that actually HAVE solved the problem, including Canada with it's megalithic moose and Australia where everything except some of the sheep is trying to kill you? It HAS been solved. The solutions are real and proven by real-life experience. We just sit in an America First bubble, thinking and praying without actually putting two and two together.