PIC: The End is the Beginning.

[Link8909]

Because it's a show about exploration and progress.

Is that something that happens in Picard? I was not given that impression from the trailer material but I have not watched the show.

I guess it's kind of like DS9 where it's more about national or state matters. Picard being more on the former and DS9 more on the latter.

Honestly, I see Star Trek Picard also approaching the Star Trek universe in the same way as Star Trek Deep Space Nine did, from simple things like both having characters that aren't in Starfleet and have stories that don't involve them or not having a large presence, to the fact that both challenge Star Trek ideals and is willing to have a more darker tone compared to other Star Trek series, and even that both are very different from the expected premise of a Star Trek series, Deep Space Nine not boldly going anywhere by being set on a space station, and Star Trek Picard being about the retired captain forming a motley crew and not putting on the uniform again.

It's also fitting since Deep Space Nine itself was also heavily criticised by fans and was considered as the black sheep of the franchise.

[Link8909]

I have to disagree with Chuck about Picard's use of a resignation to force the Admiralty into throwing resources into the rescue armada 2.0.

I understand the themes the showrunners were going for but in-universe it just paints Picard who has always been an excellent diplomat (thus by necessity a good politician) as an out of touch old man who believes everyone shares his values and opinions.

I don't think Chuck glorified the faceoff much. He just made light of Picard thinking that the institution would make a personal decision over a bureaucratic one, to obvious peril.

Picard's really good at throwing the sail to the wind but is ultimately rebelliously secular and defiant towards institution.

It's very fitting that the opening to Star Trek Picard is him playing and loosing a game of poker, Picard went "all in" with helping the Romulans, even betting his career on continuing the evacuation after the disaster, only for Starfleet to call his bluff and accept his resignation.

I still feel Picard is a great diplomate, it's just his words didn't reach a Starfleet that has suffered so much and needed time to heal, and what I love about this is very much that we can see both sides of the argument.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Because it's a show about exploration and progress.

Is that something that happens in Picard? I was not given that impression from the trailer material but I have not watched the show.

I guess it's kind of like DS9 where it's more about national or state matters. Picard being more on the former and DS9 more on the latter.

Honestly, I see Star Trek Picard also approaching the Star Trek universe in the same way as Star Trek Deep Space Nine did, from simple things like both having characters that aren't in Starfleet and have stories that don't involve them or not having a large presence, to the fact that both challenge Star Trek ideals and is willing to have a more darker tone compared to other Star Trek series, and even that both are very different from the expected premise of a Star Trek series, Deep Space Nine not boldly going anywhere by being set on a space station, and Star Trek Picard being about the retired captain forming a motley crew and not putting on the uniform again.

It's also fitting since Deep Space Nine itself was also heavily criticised by fans and was considered as the black sheep of the franchise.

I personally find Voyager a more enjoyable show but realize that Deep Space Nine does much more for the Trek universe.

I have to disagree with Chuck about Picard's use of a resignation to force the Admiralty into throwing resources into the rescue armada 2.0.

I understand the themes the showrunners were going for but in-universe it just paints Picard who has always been an excellent diplomat (thus by necessity a good politician) as an out of touch old man who believes everyone shares his values and opinions.

I don't think Chuck glorified the faceoff much. He just made light of Picard thinking that the institution would make a personal decision over a bureaucratic one, to obvious peril.

Picard's really good at throwing the sail to the wind but is ultimately rebelliously secular and defiant towards institution.

It's very fitting that the opening to Star Trek Picard is him playing and loosing a game of poker, Picard went "all in" with helping the Romulans, even betting his career on continuing the evacuation after the disaster, only for Starfleet to call his bluff and accept his resignation.

I still feel Picard is a great diplomate, it's just his words didn't reach a Starfleet that has suffered so much and needed time to heal, and what I love about this is very much that we can see both sides of the argument.

I don't believe that that's what we're ever shown in the series though I'm afraid. The movies mainly progressed his tactical resolve while Janeway beat him to Admiral.

The funny thing is that Riker had the more interesting professional dilemma about becoming a captain or staying in the most regal 1st officer position available. You could probably have a whole Jack Ryan'esque show with Riker and how he gets out of that slump.

Picard on the other hand was just shrewd with deep personal issues that were themselves set aside for his inner conflict as a Borg survivor in First Contact. To tell you the truth, all the stories of Picard's ventures as a captain might have been a household name, but of the two biggest conflicts in Federation history, he was absent from the entirety of one and led the armada against the Federation in the other. His resilience is undoubtedly impressive but again he never really made way as an admiral for all we know.

[Mabus]

Surprised Chuck didn't make a joke when Raffi mocked Picard's chateau:
Raffi: In your FiNe ChAtEaU...
Picard: My... my fine chateau... my fine chateau...
Raffi: Yeah... your fine...
Picard: Chateau, yeah. The one that I kept telling you about, right?
Raffi: Yeah, that one.
Picard: Yeah, that one, yeah...
Raffi: Yeah...
Picard: The one with the vignards and the grapes an the fields with grapes...
Raffi: angry smug Yeah...
Picard: sarcastic laughter You mean the one that I rebuilt over the one where my brother died in a fire many years ago, you know, my brother, my nephew, my family, who died in a fire, died BURNING ALIVE, WHILE SCREAMING. I literally live on a family graveyard and breath my brother and nephew's ashes for the last decade, you fucking smug chicken! Which you know because everybody knows and I told you that many years ago. I guess all that flowery weed you smoke makes you demented.
Raffi:...
Picard:Well?
Raffi: You make me look bad.

[Link8909]

I don't believe that that's what we're ever shown in the series though I'm afraid. The movies mainly progressed his tactical resolve while Janeway beat him to Admiral.

The funny thing is that Riker had the more interesting professional dilemma about becoming a captain or staying in the most regal 1st officer position available. You could probably have a whole Jack Ryan'esque show with Riker and how he gets out of that slump.

Picard on the other hand was just shrewd with deep personal issues that were themselves set aside for his inner conflict as a Borg survivor in First Contact. To tell you the truth, all the stories of Picard's ventures as a captain might have been a household name, but of the two biggest conflicts in Federation history, he was absent from the entirety of one and led the armada against the Federation in the other. His resilience is undoubtedly impressive but again he never really made way as an admiral for all we know.

That's fair, I personally feel Picard's image both in-universe and to the audience has always been as the great Starfleet Captain, and his character is more of a symbol of ideals like Superman or Optimus Prime and with Captain Pike now, and so other characters like Riker or Data for example have more complex stories in developing their characters by comparison.

Something else I love about Star Trek Picard is something you brought up, and unlike The Next Generation films the series moves the world and characters forward in a meaningful way, while I have a soft spot for Generations and love First Contact, the TNG films never moved the characters forward like the TOS films did.

[CharlesPhipps]

Picard greatly overestimated his credibility with Star Fleet and basically ignored the fact that they'd just suffered a massive mental and institutional blow with Mars. I wouldn't be surprised if some people DID think the Romulans were behind it (and unlike 9/11 truthers were right). It was an unpopular action to begin with and him resigning was exactly what they WANTED, IMHO.

Because if Picard had stayed on then they might have been forced to give him a ship of some kind or at least allowed him to some modicum of support. Raffi was also right that Picard put too much faith in Starfleet.

There were other chips that Picard could have played. The Klingons? Oh that would have been insane but Picard could have forced Martok to get a few ships. The Ferengi? Even Cardassians. All insane ideas but ones that would have been worth pursuing.

EVen a civilian fleet.

But instead he gave up.

[Link8909]

Picard greatly overestimated his credibility with Star Fleet and basically ignored the fact that they'd just suffered a massive mental and institutional blow with Mars. I wouldn't be surprised if some people DID think the Romulans were behind it (and unlike 9/11 truthers were right). It was an unpopular action to begin with and him resigning was exactly what they WANTED, IMHO.

Because if Picard had stayed on then they might have been forced to give him a ship of some kind or at least allowed him to some modicum of support. Raffi was also right that Picard put too much faith in Starfleet.

There were other chips that Picard could have played. The Klingons? Oh that would have been insane but Picard could have forced Martok to get a few ships. The Ferengi? Even Cardassians. All insane ideas but ones that would have been worth pursuing.

Even a civilian fleet.

But instead he gave up.

True, and while there are a number for reasons that either Starfleet or Picard didn't reach out to the other factions (this is after the Dominion War after all), and he certainly didn't give up after being told no the first time and did get the recuse fleet and mission green lighted, Picard still did give up, and I like that even Picard himself regrets that and is now trying to make amends.

While Picard is a paragon of Starfleet ideals, he's not perfect either and the series is willing to show his own fallibility.

[Mabus]

It's also fitting since Deep Space Nine itself was also heavily criticised by fans and was considered as the black sheep of the franchise.

I don't think that's a fair example to be honest.

The time period DS9 aired is set right before the Golden Age of Television. Complex storytelling and a stronger emphasis on character development was still new and/or still improving. Since the early 00s, and starting with shows like The Sopranos, The Shield, The Wire, etc., the appetite of viewers for longer stories increased, and in a time span of 10-20 years, you already have dozens of series, both SF and non-SF that began exploring new or old topics in a different manner. Contemporary consumer is much more accustomed to the DS9-style of storytelling.

But the reason why people love these shows is because they're done well, people working on them actually worked hard to make great products, which is why they became so well known. By comparison both DIS and PIC literally piggyback on the success of the better previous series (TOS and TNG) all while not putting any serious effort into worldbuilding, character development and internal continuity (here I'm talking the internal continuity of STD and STP series rather than that of the entire franchise), which is what people always look for in a good series. They basically want to have a great series while not putting any real effort into making the series great. They're trying to, as the old expression goes, have their cake and eat it too.

[Thebestoftherest]

I do wonder how these will be look like in the future.

[clearspira]

I do wonder how these will be look like in the future.

If Star Trek was a comic book: TOS would be the Golden Age, TNG/DS9 the Silver Age, VOY the Bronze Age, ENT would be The Speculator Crisis where everything went to shit, The Abrams Reboot would the Extreme Age*, and DIS/PIC would be the Dark Age.

I don't mean to insult modern Trek for once either. But I do think that is a good description of the general tone of the modern show. I have a feeling with the likes of Lower Decks trying to be bright and colourful that we may see another Trek Age soon.

* This is an unofficial comic book ''Age'' but one I have always liked to use. It refers to the sorts of comics that the likes of Rob Liefeld used to pump out where everyone had big muscles, big breasts, big guns and tended to like X-treme sports.