Generational perspectives and Star Wars

[MithrandirOlorin]

https://jaredmithrandirolorin.blogspot. ... -wars.html

In my ongoing war with Star Wars Prequel haters, I respond to all the "they ruined my childhood" nonsense by explaining that the Prequels are my childhood memories. The Phantom Menace is to me everything A New Hope was to those people who fell in love with it in 1977. When I watch it now it's one of the few things that make me tear up.

And I'm not along, the Prequels have plenty of fans on Tumblr and Wordpress. And Facebook groups dedicated to them.

And when saying this on a message board, I inevitably get a response from someone saying they were a youth in 1999 and they hated that movie too. As if that proves something.

My mother was of the same generation as the original Star Wars fans, being a late Baby Boomer. She's told me about how she and a boyfriend went to see it in 1977 and walked out of the theater. The movie also got a fair share of less then glowing reviews at the time.

But there is a difference between failing to fall in love with a movie that is an established franchise and one that isn't. The people for whom A New Hope wasn't their thing weren't invested in it, they just moved on, when it became a big thing later then went "huh", but felt no emotional need to be offended by people who liked it.

But for people who kept hearing about Star Wars all the time, who were told it was a classic before they had the chance to make up their own minds on it. When the movie made for your generation doesn't appeal to you, you may become unwilling to consider that it was simply not your thing.

Digibro got into trouble once for complaining about boring tastes in 3x3s, for questioning if there really are so many people who's personal favorites happened to be all these "Elitist" Anime. And I think for a lot of people of my generation or younger, movies like the original Star Wars trilogy, or the first two Godfathers, are in the same boat. A lot of people convince themselves they like them because they feel they have to.

Am I saying anyone born in the 80s who didn't love TPM wasn't meant to be a Star Wars fan? Not necessarily, there are plenty of differences between them to explain why one would appeal to you and not the other. For me, the OT has a limited appeal, I appreciate them same as I do Evangleion as an Anime fan, but they don't speak to me.

Digibro said in a podcast once that he thought he simply didn't like Space Operas because he didn't enjoy TPM. But then played Mass Effect and loved that, and then watched the RLM review and "realized' TPM was simply a bad movie. Well a youtuber named SaganFan1983 has a video totally destroying Plinkett's TPM review. Meanwhile Mass Effect may also be a Space Opera, but it's basic appeal is still massively different from Star Wars. Based on Digi's taste in Anime, Star Wars simply isn't for him, after all he said in the Kill La Kill video he hates orchestral scores.

Digi isn't quite my "Generation" in the sense I mean here though anyway. Five years younger might not seem like a separate generation at first, but in the context of how quickly Hollywood and Anime trends have shifted in the New Millennium, they are a world apart.

I was 13 when TPM came out. For awhile I'd been making the argument I summarized in the first paragraph of this post thinking of myself as the oldest end of the generation the Prequels were made for. That it's odd to say I grew on it when I was already a Teen. But lately, I've noticed how in most old footage I see of people in 1977 gushing about the original film just after leaving the theater, they were mostly Teens and early 20s, I see no real little kids. So I now realize that I am rather the youngest of the Prequel generation.

So Digibro and EndlessJess and the other PCP members, like the other rising stars of YouTube right now have a much younger perspective then I do on fiction. The time when people my age would have been the core of YouTube, was a time when the Internet assumed only negative reviews were marketable.

People of Digibro's age have stuff from 1999 they are Nostalgic for, but those are shows and movies that were aimed at a much younger audience. I was into Pokemon at the time they were super popular, but it's that fandom I was definitely arguably too old for. It caught my attention because I was a Nintendo freak who'd spent 5 years being into Mario and Zelda already. I think many Nintendo fans my age resent Pokemon so quickly becoming equal to them. I fortunately have always been pretty accepting of new stuff.

We have on YouTube now a generation that grew up at a time when the Internet was ruled by those Nostalgic for the OT. And for whom Star Wars films made for them didn't start till 2015. No one denies TFA was a BO success, even though financially it really didn't do any better then TPM.

It used to be you wouldn't really get to be a famous reviewers until your personal golden age was already over. But people born in the 90s have had the opportunity to become famous praising their favorite shows while they still aired. If more people my age had that opportunity during the Prequel era, things might be different.

However I still believe it's only a loud Minority. Plenty of Prequel defenders exist in every generation of Star Wars fans.

But the Internet is still somewhat a place where negativity trends more, as much as things may have improved. So the first YouTube videos to come up on a google search for them, are often saying "not THAT bad" at best. Because that's what trends.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Opinions are always reached through combinations of things like nostalgia, appeal to personal tastes (e.g. how much is this movie like the movies you've already seen?), group think, reaction against group think, and so on. You can't totally separate your bias from your opinion, but you can have an informed bias and rationally evaluate films whilst taking personal taste into account. Of course, there's no reason you have to do all that hard work unless you are really into movies.

I think there are at least some objective measures to judge film. To me, that's part of the reason why people who have studied and watched a ton of movies tend to have a list of favorites/best films that differs pretty significantly from Joe Public's favorite movies. Not that critics are immune to group think, and unwarranted snobbery is a real thing, but the more you watch the better you are able to gauge quality and determine if something really meaningful is being shared or if it's just a bunch of tropes and bright colors thrown onto the screen. I'm no expert, but I've seen and studied enough film to be able to see past nostalgia filters and evaluate whether a film is mere entertainment (the personal entertainment value of a film is entirely subjective, of course) or whether it's actually "good."

So how does all that relate to the prequel thing? For me, generational tastes and biases don't account for the huge difference in reception between the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy. It accounts for some of the backlash, sure, and I think the prequels have been more fairly evaluated than they were the first few years after release. Getting past the initial hype or anti-hype is crucial, and some works have gotten really unfair receptions, and time is needed to correct that. Even so, Revenge of the Sith got a decent enough reception by fans in comparison to I and II. Blade Runner 2049 is getting rave reviews right now. Nostalgia alone doesn't account for how I and II were lambasted.

[MithrandirOlorin]

ROTS was superficially more like the OT then I and II were. Structurally of course only TPM followed the same pattern.

I put Prequel bashe rin the same group as Superman Returns fans. Both wanted the same thing, one got what they wanted, the other didn't.

[Admiral X]

The "it ruined my childhood" argument is not really an argument as far as I'm concerned. I'd point at the quality of the writing, the characters, the composition of shots, etc. (basically everything that makes a movie a movie) in my comparison of quality, and using those metrics the first two movies in particular are definitely better than the prequels. No one's saying you can't like them, but they aren't what would be considered to be good examples of the craft. Of course, you've already established that your tastes are decidedly different from most people, and you know what? That's just fine.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Character is literally the most subjective thing there is. To me most OT character are pretty bland, and my general bias is for liking the female character the best so it says something that I wasn't that impressed by Leia.

[Steve]

I once horrified my friends by saying I found TESB boring and preferred AOTC to it. Later re-watchings made me view TESB slightly better... but I still find that the OT, with the exception of the first movie, have parts that make me want to hit the fast forward button. So from one heretic to another, good for you to stand up for what you like.

...although TPM does the same thing for me, honestly. Every time I've tired to rewatch it, I usually hit fast forward on Tatooine and don't stop until they get to Coruscant and "the good stuff" resumes.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I've always found A New Hope to by my least favorite of all 6 movies.

Attack of the Clones is the best Action Movie of the saga.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Leia doesn't do a lot for me as a character either. Then again, neither does Padme. Despite having some issues with her abilities, Rey has a good chance of ending up with the best arc of any female Star Wars character in canon. She really doesn't have much competition (heck, Jyn Erso might be my current leader in that department).

I actually do think some credit is due the PT for trying to give the characters some nuance, but I think the writing held back the actors and their characters. Actually, on the basic plot level, both trilogies present characters with about the same amount of depth imo. Episode IV is probably the most blatant in using archetypes (not that that's necessarily bad). The PT's problem in that regard is more in the execution.

Darth Vader has a great arc, a lot of the characters are fun and entertainingly acted, but the franchise as a whole really does not present characters with dostoevskian depth.

[SlackerinDeNile]

I adored The Phantom Menace when it came out, as did my friends, but we were all pre-teens at the time, so in many respects I feel I was in the target audience at the time. George Lucas has said he made the Star Wars films for kids although I don't believe that's completely true, it feels as if he tried to make TPM for kids and make up for it by somehow attempting to expand the target audience with the other two or at least take into consideration the maturing tastes of all the children (such as myself) who became Star Wars fans watching TPM. That's partly my take on it.

If you love these movies, I've got nothing against you, but I think it's important to be aware of the flaws in a work that you love.
For example, I love Farscape, but I think it's a flawed gem, it's silly, schlocky and often quite illogical, tasteless and trashy.

Regarding how I feel about prequels now, I think they're overdone, boring, silly, immature and clumsy. However I understand why people like them, there are some aspects to them that I like, I still think some of the action scenes and settings in each film are very impressive and that it's worth seeings the films just for those.

Regarding what I think of the Original trilogy and new films. I actually really like all three films of the OT, yes even ROTJ despite it's faults, I really like the way the story is structured among the films, but like many people I don't like how the first half of ROTJ doesn't really tie into the rest of the film, but lets face it neither does the first third or so of Empire Strikes Back, but they still make up for it by being incredibly fun and exciting to watch. I thought TFA was pretty good, I preferred it to all three prequel films although I'm not sure I like how they're saving up all the force and lightsabre action for the other movies. Rogue One was okay, I loved the atmosphere, settings, ship battles and war scenes, didn't care for anything else in the film.

I've always found A New Hope to by my least favorite of all 6 movies.

Attack of the Clones is the best Action Movie of the saga.

I disagree with you there so, so much. There certainly was a lot of action in that film, but it felt so over the top, like they wanted to cram as much action into the film as possible, the way it was written felt quite rushed as well, kind of like George Lucas had loads and loads of ideas for potentially cool moments but he never really thought them through. Also, I personally don't really enjoy action movies unless I can feel somewhat connected to the characters or feel some kind of suspense with what's going to happen, AotC felt too stiff and often cartoony for me to care about what was going on, even when I first saw it when I was 10.

Darth Vader has a great arc, a lot of the characters are fun and entertainingly acted, but the franchise as a whole really does not present characters with dostoevskian depth.

See I like Darth Vader, he's one of my all time favourite villains and I HATE when people try to make him out to be a cartoonish sociopath. I always viewed him as a brutal fascist, but a fair leader to his men, maybe not protective of his underlings and soldiers, but not the kind of person who would callously slaughter them during battle or kill anyone brave enough to work for him (unless they were stupid enough to cross him). I can't stand Anakin though, even in Revenge of the Sith I could never see this guy becoming someone as cold, efficient and powerful as Darth Vader...

In regards to Darth Vader picking off a few officers during ESB, I viewed that more as a cautionary measure, like they were on the verge of becoming rebel sympathisers, and being who he is he telepathically picked up on this.

[GandALF]

I like the prequels, but I'm not going to deny their flaws. I think the best way to approach them is to treat them as the Silmarillion to the originals' LOTR. They're connected, definitely, but they're not the same experience (TCW also makes the prequels a lot better to watch).

One of the main problems people seem have with the prequels is simply that they are not the same as the originals aside from a few nods, and the problem with that is that the originals are essentially perfect, there is no way to improve on them storywise. Lucas knew that, and while regurgitating the originals would make him lots of money, he preferred to take the creative risk (and he was going to make a lot of money anyway).