A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Winter
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

Post by Winter »

Makeshift Python wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:29 am My theory about Force ghosts has always been that you can only speak with those you actually share a past with and that you know how to channel the Force. The only ghosts that we ever see appear for Luke is Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. No other Jedi appear because there is no connection between Luke and Mace Windu. Likewise, Rey only sees the ghosts of Luke and Leia at the end of TROS, and nobody else shows up because they're no one she ever had interacted with besides Ben (which would have been awkward). This would also explain why no ghost appeared before Luke during his years of exile because he had cut himself off from the Force, and it was only once he reconnected that Yoda could appear before him talk some sense.

The only thing that kinda breaks that theory is that Rey hears the voices of Jedi of the past encouraging her to persist, but they're only voices so there's probably some wiggle room there.
Except it's established in Revenge of the Sith that Qui-Gon being able to communicate with Yoda AND being able to teach him and Obi-Wan how to become Force Ghosts is not normal. However, your theory does have some merit to it as in the Clone Wars when Obi-Wan sees Qui-Gon's ghost on a planet that is home to the living embodiment of the Light, Dark and the Grey parts of the Force (long story Chuck will likely cover it but I do recommend checking it out as it's honestly a really good arc) when Obi-Wan asks how Qui-Gon is here Qui-Gon responds that he is here because Obi-Wan is here.

However, it is still the case that Force Ghosts are not normal and Qui-Gon was only able to achieve it due to how much he studied the living Force. This is one of the reasons I so strongly dislike the bit where Rey is able to connect with all the Jedi. Not only is this yet ANOTHER power she gets with no real training but is also muddies the water in regards to the nature of life after Death and how it works.

Honestly, for me it feels more like the writers just didn't care about following the rules of established lore just for the sake of wowing the audience. I'm not against that but there has to be limit to how often you break established lore for the sake of a cool moment.

One of the things I like about TPT is that it kept within the rules of how the rules of the world work. Every skills that are shown are just extensions of abilities that have already been established and other abilities like being able to bring people back from death is only a legend in universe and something that is discouraged by the Jedi. Then ROS came along and Rey can now Heal and people can be brought back from death with ease because Shut Up.

Rey being just able to heal is yet another case of TDST rending the first two Trilogies pointless for the sake of wowing the viewers. Same thing goes for the Holdo Maneuver, not because it breaks all space combat moving forward but because that's not how Lightspeed works. Lightspeed is just used to enter Hyperspace which is an alternate reality but that is ignored for the sake of a cool looking shot. And like most things in TDST the films keep trying to justify the existence of these world rule breaking moments by going on about how they're all a 1 and a million or so rare that it only happens every Quintilian Centuries or what have you.

The more you try to make something a one and done deal and just handwave away why it's not done more often throughout a story, the story has a problem.

Take Superman, his ability to fly is now synonymous with the character along with his classic abilities (Heat Vision, Freeze breath, faster then a speeding bullet and so on) but his other powers, like being able to create an energy field that creates a net to pull a space pod so it's shielded from the sun is... not one of his better known powers and to my knowledge not used that often for obvious reasons. It's ridicules and breaks the story.

Things like the Holdo Maneuver, Lightspeed Skipping and Force healing will likely be used less often because it breaks the rules of Star Wars and without those rules there is no tension. If you can just jump from system to system with no real issue then why bother with trying to get the concordance pushed in when you can just go. Same thing with tracking through Hyperspace. If you can track people wherever they go then there's no safety.

All of these are one shot uses used to look cool, dammed the established lore. Of course, this is inevitable with any series that has gone on as long as Star Wars and it's not like Star Wars hadn't broken these rules before and it was just as badly received in those stories too. But to turn that around there was no reason Disney couldn't have learned from those stories as to why you REALLY shouldn't break established lore just for the sake of a cool moment that will never be done again for story reasons.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 am This seems everything to do with the sequel trilogy and not much to do about the prequel trilogy.
Honestly, I'm noticing that with nearly every thread Winter starts. He could start a James Bond thread and then midway through the original post turn it into a diatribe about the Star Wars sequels.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Makeshift Python wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:46 am
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 am This seems everything to do with the sequel trilogy and not much to do about the prequel trilogy.
Honestly, I'm noticing that with nearly every thread Winter starts. He could start a James Bond thread and then midway through the original post turn it into a diatribe about the Star Wars sequels.
Eh, OCD, can't turn it off, you just gotta wait it out, believe me I've tried. Don't worry will die down eventually. Also, please do not refer to me in he/him pronouns, that is not who I am.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Okay, is it they/them or she/her?
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Makeshift Python wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:12 am Okay, is it they/them or she/her?
She/her.

In regards to me talking about SW it's still going to go on for a while, I am trying to stop but again I can't just switch it off. I'm going to bring up 2 more things that compare She-Ra and TDST and Hopefully I'll be able to focus on other things. However, can I just say that with things looking like they'll be returning to relitive normal in the near-ish future it's just nice to think about something other then what's been happening in the world just for the fun of it instead of trying to just stay sane.

Like I said, I'm exited for Raya and the Last Dragon, I'm looking forward to the next season of The Owl House and for all my issues with Netflix doing the same thing that I am with Tomb Raider I'm on what will hopefully be the last script for the season so I can start focusing on refining the scripts and getting a cast and crew.

Focusing on TDST and my issues with it is party due to just how much the series means to me but also just a way to talk about other things I enjoy. I mean, who knew that a She-Ra reboot would be a show that I would see as TDST done right and just a great show on the whole.

And finally I will be covering my thoughts on Episode 9 of SW this year, all three of them, over on DeviantArt and that should help put this all behind me. I guess will see what happens. :D
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Winter wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:29 am
Makeshift Python wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:46 am
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 am This seems everything to do with the sequel trilogy and not much to do about the prequel trilogy.
Honestly, I'm noticing that with nearly every thread Winter starts. He could start a James Bond thread and then midway through the original post turn it into a diatribe about the Star Wars sequels.
Eh, OCD, can't turn it off, you just gotta wait it out, believe me I've tried. Don't worry will die down eventually. Also, please do not refer to me in he/him pronouns, that is not who I am.
Really I'm uncertain of if we've ever responded to each other on this forum yet. So, just in that case, nice to meet you.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

Post by TulipQulqu »

The problem with comparing the prequels and sequels is that there is a painfully obvious break in the narrative threads in the latter while the former is one man's vision being done kind of haphazardly.

You are not supposed to like Kylo Ren at the end of 8. The movie starts out teasing that he will do the full arc of Darth Vader, and then ends on him deciding to just be evil. This is a good way to deliver on the question of "can Ben Solo be redeemed" because the audience expects a "yes". However, as the OP pointed out "no" makes way more sense because he is just such a bad dude.

This is also why 9 has to kill Ben off like 6 did Vader, because if we actually sat down and tried to figure out how to have either Ben Solo or Anakin Skywalker do the work needed to make up for their crimes it would require figuring out how someone can make amends for mass murder. We just do not have the systems of restitution and redemption IRL to do this, so it is nigh impossible to sell to an audience.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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I think having Ben live in the end could work, but it couldn't be played off as "oh he's redeemed, so everything is fine and everyone is cool now". That was sort of okay (though not really) with Anakin because he got to die in the end and not face any consequences for all the 20+ years of war crimes he committed. It was stupid, but Lucas' films are very simplistic that way. Keeping Ben alive would at least have been different, because that would open up many story possibilities for him.

But no, he had to die because Vader did, and Abrams is one of the least original directors out there in terms of storytelling.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

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Makeshift Python wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:16 pm I think having Ben live in the end could work, but it couldn't be played off as "oh he's redeemed, so everything is fine and everyone is cool now". That was sort of okay (though not really) with Anakin because he got to die in the end and not face any consequences for all the 20+ years of war crimes he committed. It was stupid, but Lucas' films are very simplistic that way. Keeping Ben alive would at least have been different, because that would open up many story possibilities for him.

But no, he had to die because Vader did, and Abrams is one of the least original directors out there in terms of storytelling.
The problem here is that there is a redemption at all. After the Force Awakens I was one of few fans who didn't think Kylo should be redeemed because he murdered Han just to strengthen his connection to the Dark Side. With Obi-Wan you could argue that Vader had a reason to kill him as he was the reason he was in that body suit and he at least killed him in a fair fight unlike Ben who killed him by using Han's love for him to get him closer.

I never entertained the idea that Kylo could be redeemed and thought they would go full villain with him post TFA as it would be something new. That's also one of the reasons I don't like Rey buying into Kylo's BS in TLJ because all she has to go on is his word and nothing else.

By contrast we see the good that's in Anakin throughout the Prequels and know that he can still redeem himself but he crossed to many lines for him to ever be able to make up for it. And Return of the Jedi shows Vader's love for his son in a number of subtle ways both through his body language and dialogue so while in TOT there wasn't much leading to him turning on Palpatine there was SOMETHING. And with the inclusion of the Prequels one could argue that there is more build up to said redemption.

Bu Kylo, he spends most of TFA fearing that he will never be as strong as Vader. Then TLJ has him doing everything he can to prove he is committed to the dark side and ROS has him spending all his time trying to corrupt and later try to out right murder Rey when she refuses to join him. At least Vader never actively tried to kill Luke and kept holding back during his fights with him. Doesn't justify he actions but it's SOMETHING!!!

One criticism in regards to how Anakin was written in the Prequels, at least with most of the reviews I've seen, is that he should have been written with a darker side to him. One reviewer felt there should have been something like him pulling the legs off a spider and others feeling that he should be enjoying hurting others. I don't agree with this because it doesn't line up with his characterization from TOT.

While Vader was a villain he never really enjoyed killing all that much. He doesn't really toy with his enemies very often and even when he does it's more of a case of him testing them (see his fight with Luke in Empire) and the one time he straight up tortures people was done solely to draw Luke in and she shows no sign of enjoying what he does.

This is just my interpretation of Vader but I can't recall anything in the films or even that many EU stories that presented him as a sadist who enjoys the power he wields.

Kylo, however, does what he does just to get more powerful and to be more like his ideal. And in both versions of Episode 9 he is redeemed. He recognizes that he was wrong and gives up his life to correct that wrong and for the flimsiest of reasons and he's almost forgiven my those around him.

In TOT the only person who needed to see Vader redeemed was Luke and he was the only one who was shown mourning him and is the only one who comes close to forgiving him and even then, not really. Because Vader did do to much to ever truly be forgiven thus he's only salvation was in death. That, and Lucas just wanted to wrap the series up so he could focus on his family and trying to go into Vader's redemption would take to long.

I do like how both the Prequels and The Clone Wars took the time to examine Anakin's fall and what led up to it. I do agree that his actual fall to the dark side was to fast but I don't agree that his reasons for falling was that he wanted power but rather that he cared to much and his love for others resulted in him not wanting to let them go that he lost all he loved as a result.
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Re: A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

Post by Makeshift Python »

You forgot one critical point about Kylo Ren: His mother, Leia. The fact that he could not commit to killing her showed that she was the one element that could possibly reawaken the Ben inside of him. I suspect that had Carrie Fisher not passed away that scene with Han would have actually been her instead projecting herself, giving her last ounce of energy to be able to communicate with him and then her passing pulls him back into the light. Instead it’s more of a series of events that brings back Ben, where her passing makes him pause for Rey to strike, then Rey’s act of kindness by healing his wound (and perhaps his soul?) starts to make him question himself, and then finally the scene with Han is what ultimately brings back Ben.

I mentioned before, I was not on board the idea of Kylo Ren turning good. But at the way it was handled in TROS turned me around on that, and is probably the strongest element in that film. I wish the rest of the film was as good as that.
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