A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

[Winter]

I'm not sure how many times you've given a response like this, but again, Luke having piloted hover cars 1 foot off the ground has no implication of being able to pilot an x-wing in space and make the shot he did.

The hover car isn't the only thing he flies, we actually see his ship when he's talking to 3P0 and he states that he's a pilot a number of times in the movie. This is in the text of the movie same with Rey in TFA when all we get before she flies a ship is this.

Finn: We Need a Pilot!
Rey: We Got One!

In A New Hope we get the same thing.

Obi-Wan: I've heard you've become quite the pilot yourself
-
Han: But who's gonna fly it kid, you?
Luke: You bet I could I'm a bad pilot myself.
-
Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
-
Biggs: Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories,

Again, this is the text in the movie, a few lines said by the characters so when Luke goes to fly an X-Wing we know he'll be able to handle it. The issue isn't that either Luke and Rey are gifted pilots as there has to be some narrative convince the issue is Rey is To Good.

Her turning the Falcon off to give Finn the perfect shot? I'm fine with that. Her being able to resist Kylo's Mind Prop? Okay, I could see other Force sensitives doing the same thing. Her using the Jedi mind trick, Force pull and beating Kylo in a lightsaber duel after just learning she has powers. That's the step to far.

It took Luke 4 or 5 years to master the Force pull and that was with what little training Obi-Wan gave him and even being trained by Yoda, the greatest Jedi we know he was still defeated by Vader who was mostly just toying with Luke and Luke didn't pull off the Jedi Mind Trick until Return of the Jedi which is set a whole year after Empire and at least 6 years after A New Hope.

Rey got so powerful so fast that it's comical. Luke needed training, Anakin needed training, Rey just needed to be told she had powers and in just under a week she was seemingly as powerful as Yoda.

[Nealithi]

I'm not sure how many times you've given a response like this, but again, Luke having piloted hover cars 1 foot off the ground has no implication of being able to pilot an x-wing in space and make the shot he did.

First @Winter, uhm sure.

Okay. Look on the scene with the oil bath in A New Hope. Both the model he is playing with and the craft in the background is the T-16 He used to fly. The 'crop dusting' Han mentions later. That is what he flew in Beggars Canyon back home and bullseyed womprats. These are in the movie and I don't even need to pull the deleted scene where Biggs informs Red Leader that Luke is one of the best bush pilots.
So it is not driving a car.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Her turning the Falcon off to give Finn the perfect shot? I'm fine with that. Her being able to resist Kylo's Mind Prop? Okay, I could see other Force sensitives doing the same thing. Her using the Jedi mind trick, Force pull and beating Kylo in a lightsaber duel after just learning she has powers. That's the step to far.

It took Luke 4 or 5 years to master the Force pull and that was with what little training Obi-Wan gave him and even being trained by Yoda, the greatest Jedi we know he was still defeated by Vader who was mostly just toying with Luke and Luke didn't pull off the Jedi Mind Trick until Return of the Jedi which is set a whole year after Empire and at least 6 years after A New Hope.

Rey got so powerful so fast that it's comical. Luke needed training, Anakin needed training, Rey just needed to be told she had powers and in just under a week she was seemingly as powerful as Yoda.

I agree that New Hope actually established him as a pilot, and I concede to that point. But he's already straight up receiving direct talk from Obi Wan posthumously and taking off the computer guidance visor.

As far as Rey; If you're able to establish that the mind trick is relatively advanced compared to other force abilities, then we might be getting somewhere. But I think it's very reasonable to defer to her practice of trading and haggling to survive as very good support for her happening to be a force sensitive user with natural aptitude for mind tricks.

The fight, as covered by Jill Bearup, makes a lot of sense as Kylo running his own theatrics along with his wound. It's a reasonable dramatic set piece with logical positions and outcomes.

[McAvoy]

Luke was established as a pilot and a good one in A New Hope. It only doesn't make sense that he could become proficient with the X-Wing in a short amount of time. Sort of like saying that I can fly a Phenom 100 (small jet business jet) and then say I can fly a F-22. But at least there was mention that it was possible.

I don't even think there was ever mention Rey could even fly anything. But yet she can.

There is a theory or behind the scenes thing where Rey downloaded Kylo's knowledge somehow and learned how to do the things she does from him in that interrogation scene. Doesn't really explain how she says 'Force' and closes her eyes and then seems to overwhelm Kylo. Never liked that scene personally. It's acting like she forgot or just learned to use the Force. But not even minutes before she just used the Force to grab Anakin's lightsaber.

I can certainly buy that she is Force sensitive and was unconsciously blocking Kylo's mind trick.

[Winter]

Luke was established as a pilot and a good one in A New Hope. It only doesn't make sense that he could become proficient with the X-Wing in a short amount of time. Sort of like saying that I can fly a Phenom 100 (small jet business jet) and then say I can fly a F-22. But at least there was mention that it was possible.

I don't even think there was ever mention Rey could even fly anything. But yet she can.

There is a theory or behind the scenes thing where Rey downloaded Kylo's knowledge somehow and learned how to do the things she does from him in that interrogation scene. Doesn't really explain how she says 'Force' and closes her eyes and then seems to overwhelm Kylo. Never liked that scene personally. It's acting like she forgot or just learned to use the Force. But not even minutes before she just used the Force to grab Anakin's lightsaber.

I can certainly buy that she is Force sensitive and was unconsciously blocking Kylo's mind trick.

Rey does mention she's a pilot, right before she goes to fly the Falcon and I can also buy that Rey can block a mind read. Those aren't an issue for me and if she had used her powers to hit the weak spot on the Death Star 3 I wouldn't have minded it. But buy the end of Film 1 she's already skilled in lightsaber combat despite never training with one (again, Rebels had a whole arc going over how hard using a Lightsaber is even for a Mandalorian and this arc was made AFTER TFA) and by end of TLJ she's doing something that Luke couldn't pull off even with Yoda training him and yet Rey did it WITHOUT a teacher.

If the series didn't make a big deal about needing to train to master ones abilities I wouldn't mind. Luke at Superhero movies, characters learn how to use their powers in less then a year and sometimes only need an weekend to get a handle of their powers. And Supervillains have an even smaller learning curve with them getting a handle of their powers in less then half and hour.

But Star Wars ISN'T a superhero series, there are rules and ignoring those rules results in many fans losing interest in the story. They made Rey so powerful for no other reason other then "She was chosen by the Force".

[McAvoy]

Luke was established as a pilot and a good one in A New Hope. It only doesn't make sense that he could become proficient with the X-Wing in a short amount of time. Sort of like saying that I can fly a Phenom 100 (small jet business jet) and then say I can fly a F-22. But at least there was mention that it was possible.

I don't even think there was ever mention Rey could even fly anything. But yet she can.

There is a theory or behind the scenes thing where Rey downloaded Kylo's knowledge somehow and learned how to do the things she does from him in that interrogation scene. Doesn't really explain how she says 'Force' and closes her eyes and then seems to overwhelm Kylo. Never liked that scene personally. It's acting like she forgot or just learned to use the Force. But not even minutes before she just used the Force to grab Anakin's lightsaber.

I can certainly buy that she is Force sensitive and was unconsciously blocking Kylo's mind trick.

Rey does mention she's a pilot, right before she goes to fly the Falcon and I can also buy that Rey can block a mind read. Those aren't an issue for me and if she had used her powers to hit the weak spot on the Death Star 3 I wouldn't have minded it. But buy the end of Film 1 she's already skilled in lightsaber combat despite never training with one (again, Rebels had a whole arc going over how hard using a Lightsaber is even for a Mandalorian and this arc was made AFTER TFA) and by end of TLJ she's doing something that Luke couldn't pull off even with Yoda training him and yet Rey did it WITHOUT a teacher.

If the series didn't make a big deal about needing to train to master ones abilities I wouldn't mind. Luke at Superhero movies, characters learn how to use their powers in less then a year and sometimes only need an weekend to get a handle of their powers. And Supervillains have an even smaller learning curve with them getting a handle of their powers in less then half and hour.

But Star Wars ISN'T a superhero series, there are rules and ignoring those rules results in many fans losing interest in the story. They made Rey so powerful for no other reason other then "She was chosen by the Force".

If she did I might have missed it or forgot it. But I think Reys ability to pilot was made far far worse with Rise of Skywalker anyway.

I absolutely agree though. The whole Wampa scene where Luke is hanging upside down showed that it was difficult for him to naturally call upon the Force to bring his lightsaber to him. In fact, it took Yoda's training to teach him that. Hell even after his training with Yoda he couldn't lift his X-Wing out of the swamp. Yet Rey can lift rocks like it's nothing.

The point of Luke in Empire not being able to do these things in the movie at least initially was hammering home how much he was not ready to face Vader.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

[Nealithi]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

Okay this got me thinking on two possibly related topics that might excuse Rey a bit so bear with me.
Luke and even Anakin are told they are too old for the training. Now it comes off to the audience as being dicks. And some written lore is that it is to part them from family connections. But what if there is a practical reason?
Looking to Yoda training Luke. Luke had certain ideas about what was and wasn't. He resisted some of his own training. Yoda flat out told him he would not need weapons in the darkside cave. Luke takes them anyway. Luke says lifting the X-wing from the swamp is impossible and entirely different from moving rocks slowly. He has preconceptions on what is possible. As Yoda said to him. He has to unlearn what he had learned. Luke was raised to be very practical in farming. Try to drive out those day dreams.
Where do we see Rey? Sure she scavenges for parts and works hard. But she sits by wrecks wearing old helmets and daydreaming of something better. When Han comes along, he tells her all those fanciful stories she heard? They are all true. Her imagination is off the leash and she has no preconceptions of what she can't achieve despite her age.

Now this is conjecture on my part, but it seems to fit reasonably well. If it is the reasoning they really should have mentioned it in the movies. What do you think of the reasoning?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Now this is conjecture on my part, but it seems to fit reasonably well. If it is the reasoning they really should have mentioned it in the movies. What do you think of the reasoning?

It's more deducible that the age limit of training was just an agreed upon rule by the Jedi/council than it was a hard age limit by rules of the force. Lest we wouldn't ever see them attempt to try to train either of them in the first place...

If you're bringing up the issue of preconceived notions, the fact that Rey was just sitting around and not fantasizing with her friends about piloting and jedis would give her less baggage in the way of her training.

[McAvoy]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

How is it a bad example? Sure he is pretty much the only one that showed any difficulty with the Force in the movies. Anakin in Episode 1 had no training and pretty much only showed some instinctual level of the Force. In 2 and 3 he had ten years and more of learning how to use it and mastering it.

Rey does it more or less right off of the bat.

That's just the movies, in the cartoon series Clone Wars and Rebels we do see padawans or Force sensitive users show difficulty with using the Force.

But that's not even the point. Luke is a damn near step by step following if the Hero's Journey. It was a set up for the whole movie in his showdown with Darth Vader. It was shown that he still needs training and does go through on finding Yoda to complete his training. And then he left before it was complete to face Vader. Which sets up the failure.