My Mixed Feelings on Phase 4 of the MCU

[Winter]

Phase 4 is the era of forced diversity not good plots.
Look at Eternals.

Unless there is more than having two married men in the film then I don't see how it's forced.

Switching to DC for a moment, in Season 4 of Young Justice there is a plot that is about racism that is a major plot point with the Martians. It has exactly Zero Subtly, no nuance and is as black and white as one can get.

I was reminded of Harrowmont vs. Bhelen in Dragon Age: Origins with the latter being a bigot towards the cast-less Dwarves while the other is someone who murdered his own family and cheated his way to the top to get the throne. And yet, Harrowmont is a good man who is reasonable and has a sense of honor while Bhelen wants to rebuild Dwarven Society because it's a broken system that needs to change if it's to survive.

This is an interesting idea with a lot of nuance as it's not about showing that both side have a point but rather both sides have two men who can be seen as good people who do evil things for a greater good or believe in stupid things.

Amphibia does something similar as the main characters, Anne, Sasha and Marcy, are all girls of color (and probably a little bit gay for one another) and deals with things like class system and even hint at, (though never directly addressed) racism. And That's So Raven had an episode where someone refused to hire the title character because she was black and that episode is praised for being so forward on the subject.

The problem with the Martian Subplot is that it approaches the subject as racism with no real understanding and forces it's message in a way that is less subtle then a show about talking frogs.

Eteranls and most of the MCU don't really have this issue. Yeah, the Marketing is forcing this but the actual films don't really draw attention to this. Shang Chi, to just take one example, is not treated any differently then Steve, Tony or Thor. He is someone who has power and a desire to help people. Carol being a woman who had to fight for what she wants is a part of her character but her memories being taken from her is the real focus of her arc in the first movie. Loki being bi is mentioned but doesn't really go anywhere and Sam being black isn't treated as that big of a deal when the real focus is him wondering if he should take up Steve's role as Captain America.

These film's DO put emphases on the characters being not being white men but it's more of a side note and not really that forced.

I'll be honest, I've just grown tired of this argument as diversity has no impact on the quality of a story though my main issue comes more from the fact that the people who complain about it don't actually bother WATCHING the thing their complaining about.

[McAvoy]

Phase 4 is the era of forced diversity not good plots.
Look at Eternals.

Unless there is more than having two married men in the film then I don't see how it's forced.

Switching to DC for a moment, in Season 4 of Young Justice there is a plot that is about racism that is a major plot point with the Martians. It has exactly Zero Subtly, no nuance and is as black and white as one can get.

I was reminded of Harrowmont vs. Bhelen in Dragon Age: Origins with the latter being a bigot towards the cast-less Dwarves while the other is someone who murdered his own family and cheated his way to the top to get the throne. And yet, Harrowmont is a good man who is reasonable and has a sense of honor while Bhelen wants to rebuild Dwarven Society because it's a broken system that needs to change if it's to survive.

This is an interesting idea with a lot of nuance as it's not about showing that both side have a point but rather both sides have two men who can be seen as good people who do evil things for a greater good or believe in stupid things.

Amphibia does something similar as the main characters, Anne, Sasha and Marcy, are all girls of color (and probably a little bit gay for one another) and deals with things like class system and even hint at, (though never directly addressed) racism. And That's So Raven had an episode where someone refused to hire the title character because she was black and that episode is praised for being so forward on the subject.

The problem with the Martian Subplot is that it approaches the subject as racism with no real understanding and forces it's message in a way that is less subtle then a show about talking frogs.

Eteranls and most of the MCU don't really have this issue. Yeah, the Marketing is forcing this but the actual films don't really draw attention to this. Shang Chi, to just take one example, is not treated any differently then Steve, Tony or Thor. He is someone who has power and a desire to help people. Carol being a woman who had to fight for what she wants is a part of her character but her memories being taken from her is the real focus of her arc in the first movie. Loki being bi is mentioned but doesn't really go anywhere and Sam being black isn't treated as that big of a deal when the real focus is him wondering if he should take up Steve's role as Captain America.

These film's DO put emphases on the characters being not being white men but it's more of a side note and not really that forced.

I'll be honest, I've just grown tired of this argument as diversity has no impact on the quality of a story though my main issue comes more from the fact that the people who complain about it don't actually bother WATCHING the thing their complaining about.

The way I look at it, it being 'forced' is that there is any mention or showing of the gay community, racism or whatnot. Like at what point where would someone it not being forced? Like a mere mention but don't show it? Or one out of 20 movies that show it? How about one out of 100 movies?

[Winter]

The way I look at it, it being 'forced' is that there is any mention or showing of the gay community, racism or whatnot. Like at what point where would someone it not being forced? Like a mere mention but don't show it? Or one out of 20 movies that show it? How about one out of 100 movies?

Switching series for a moment let's take a look at Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. This book is... kinda fascinating as it has many interesting ideas and clearly left an impact o pop-culture because the word Grok is a word in the English Dictionary... And then it turns into a story about people gaining superpowers by having sex with the title character and said title character kills anyone who tries to stand against him and Heinlein is VERY open that his views on Homosexuality, Native Americans, Religion and Woman in that they, (in order) is a terrible and unnatural, were cannibals, is bad unless it fits my world view, and is there to please men... Yikes! Just. Yikes.

[clearspira]

Phase 4 is the era of forced diversity not good plots.
Look at Eternals.

Unless there is more than having two married men in the film then I don't see how it's forced.

Switching to DC for a moment, in Season 4 of Young Justice there is a plot that is about racism that is a major plot point with the Martians. It has exactly Zero Subtly, no nuance and is as black and white as one can get.

I was reminded of Harrowmont vs. Bhelen in Dragon Age: Origins with the latter being a bigot towards the cast-less Dwarves while the other is someone who murdered his own family and cheated his way to the top to get the throne. And yet, Harrowmont is a good man who is reasonable and has a sense of honor while Bhelen wants to rebuild Dwarven Society because it's a broken system that needs to change if it's to survive.

This is an interesting idea with a lot of nuance as it's not about showing that both side have a point but rather both sides have two men who can be seen as good people who do evil things for a greater good or believe in stupid things.

Amphibia does something similar as the main characters, Anne, Sasha and Marcy, are all girls of color (and probably a little bit gay for one another) and deals with things like class system and even hint at, (though never directly addressed) racism. And That's So Raven had an episode where someone refused to hire the title character because she was black and that episode is praised for being so forward on the subject.

The problem with the Martian Subplot is that it approaches the subject as racism with no real understanding and forces it's message in a way that is less subtle then a show about talking frogs.

Eteranls and most of the MCU don't really have this issue. Yeah, the Marketing is forcing this but the actual films don't really draw attention to this. Shang Chi, to just take one example, is not treated any differently then Steve, Tony or Thor. He is someone who has power and a desire to help people. Carol being a woman who had to fight for what she wants is a part of her character but her memories being taken from her is the real focus of her arc in the first movie. Loki being bi is mentioned but doesn't really go anywhere and Sam being black isn't treated as that big of a deal when the real focus is him wondering if he should take up Steve's role as Captain America.

These film's DO put emphases on the characters being not being white men but it's more of a side note and not really that forced.

I'll be honest, I've just grown tired of this argument as diversity has no impact on the quality of a story though my main issue comes more from the fact that the people who complain about it don't actually bother WATCHING the thing their complaining about.

The way I look at it, it being 'forced' is that there is any mention or showing of the gay community, racism or whatnot. Like at what point where would someone it not being forced? Like a mere mention but don't show it? Or one out of 20 movies that show it? How about one out of 100 movies?

My definition of forced: when it doesn't need to be there.

You can have a gay or a trans without actually telling us. Y'know, how they don't tell us someone is straight. I realise in our ''every LGBT community imaginable now has a flag to wave'' world that might be an amazing concept, but it really isn't.

True equality will come when all of the special days, all of the flags, all of the fucking parades vanish and is replaced by one thing: apathy. The same apathy we hold for heterosexuals.

Either way I am impressed. Disney is doubling down on this film even though it is being banned across the globe. The Eternals is Marvel's most diverse film with its least diverse audience.

[hammerofglass]

"Forced diversity" just means a character's race gender or sexuality isn't relevant but they still weren't made a straight white cis man. The assumption being that that's the default for a person and varying from it is inherently political while following it is not. It's called "incidental diversity" by people who aren't salty about it.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

"Forced diversity" just means a character's race gender or sexuality isn't relevant but they still weren't made a straight white cis man. The assumption being that that's the default for a person and varying from it is inherently political while following it is not. It's called "incidental diversity" by people who aren't salty about it.

There's definitely a transition to more progressively appropriate content, and it can be less than subtle. These types of arguments aren't rooted away from fact, but it is a regular process of modernization that people are less shocked by as this stuff is normalized and refined.

[Winter]

My definition of forced: when it doesn't need to be there.

You can have a gay or a trans without actually telling us. Y'know, how they don't tell us someone is straight. I realise in our ''every LGBT community imaginable now has a flag to wave'' world that might be an amazing concept, but it really isn't.

True equality will come when all of the special days, all of the flags, all of the fucking parades vanish and is replaced by one thing: apathy. The same apathy we hold for heterosexuals.

Either way I am impressed. Disney is doubling down on this film even though it is being banned across the globe. The Eternals is Marvel's most diverse film with its least diverse audience.

Indulge me for a moment, what stories (TV Show, Movies, Games, Comics and Novels) do you think handle LGBT representation poorly and which do you think handled it well?

To give some examples on my half I think stories like Dreadnought, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, The Legend of Korra, Kyoshi, The Owl House and Dragon Age: Inquisition handled it well while Mass Effect: Andromeda, Kannazuki No Miko and Dragon Age II handled poorly.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

My definition of forced: when it doesn't need to be there.

You can have a gay or a trans without actually telling us. Y'know, how they don't tell us someone is straight. I realise in our ''every LGBT community imaginable now has a flag to wave'' world that might be an amazing concept, but it really isn't.

True equality will come when all of the special days, all of the flags, all of the fucking parades vanish and is replaced by one thing: apathy. The same apathy we hold for heterosexuals.

Either way I am impressed. Disney is doubling down on this film even though it is being banned across the globe. The Eternals is Marvel's most diverse film with its least diverse audience.

Part of it is that our reality that we base this fiction on is becoming more prominent with awareness towards race relations and orientation marginalization. It's like Nog quitting Quark's to join Starfleet, it's largely a sign of the times... and people simply get as much entertainment value looking at media through a progressive lens as you do an escapist one. It's like root beer... gross but it grows on you.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Phase 4 is the era of forced diversity not good plots.
Look at Eternals.

Unless there is more than having two married men in the film then I don't see how it's forced.

Switching to DC for a moment, in Season 4 of Young Justice there is a plot that is about racism that is a major plot point with the Martians. It has exactly Zero Subtly, no nuance and is as black and white as one can get.

I was reminded of Harrowmont vs. Bhelen in Dragon Age: Origins with the latter being a bigot towards the cast-less Dwarves while the other is someone who murdered his own family and cheated his way to the top to get the throne. And yet, Harrowmont is a good man who is reasonable and has a sense of honor while Bhelen wants to rebuild Dwarven Society because it's a broken system that needs to change if it's to survive.

This is an interesting idea with a lot of nuance as it's not about showing that both side have a point but rather both sides have two men who can be seen as good people who do evil things for a greater good or believe in stupid things.

Amphibia does something similar as the main characters, Anne, Sasha and Marcy, are all girls of color (and probably a little bit gay for one another) and deals with things like class system and even hint at, (though never directly addressed) racism. And That's So Raven had an episode where someone refused to hire the title character because she was black and that episode is praised for being so forward on the subject.

The problem with the Martian Subplot is that it approaches the subject as racism with no real understanding and forces it's message in a way that is less subtle then a show about talking frogs.

Eteranls and most of the MCU don't really have this issue. Yeah, the Marketing is forcing this but the actual films don't really draw attention to this. Shang Chi, to just take one example, is not treated any differently then Steve, Tony or Thor. He is someone who has power and a desire to help people. Carol being a woman who had to fight for what she wants is a part of her character but her memories being taken from her is the real focus of her arc in the first movie. Loki being bi is mentioned but doesn't really go anywhere and Sam being black isn't treated as that big of a deal when the real focus is him wondering if he should take up Steve's role as Captain America.

These film's DO put emphases on the characters being not being white men but it's more of a side note and not really that forced.

I'll be honest, I've just grown tired of this argument as diversity has no impact on the quality of a story though my main issue comes more from the fact that the people who complain about it don't actually bother WATCHING the thing their complaining about.

The way I look at it, it being 'forced' is that there is any mention or showing of the gay community, racism or whatnot. Like at what point where would someone it not being forced? Like a mere mention but don't show it? Or one out of 20 movies that show it? How about one out of 100 movies?

My definition of forced: when it doesn't need to be there.

You can have a gay or a trans without actually telling us

Okay, so if they're explicitly, canonically gay, that's too in-your-face. Got it. No more waffling or beating about the bush. You want to take us back to when all gay and trans characterization was subtext.

The only reason that we don't have to tell you a character is straight is because we have an entire society pushing straightness on us and trying to erase any hint of queer stuff to protect tender sensitivities like yours from being offended.

[Nealithi]

Fuzzy, I think forced is when the focus is on 'this is special' not incidental.
I am going to borrow MCU a moment. Hawkeye has a wife and children. It was a bit surprising considering his job. But somewhat sweet. If you found out Natasha happened to have a girl friend she was serious about as a point that these people need normal lives as well as being spies. Then it is incidental. If you focus on Natasha's relationship because it is same sex, then you are forcing the focus.
Take the post landing scenes in Star Trek Beyond. Sulu meets his partner and their adopted daughter. He has a family and it is a nod to the fact that Sulu had a daughter in the prime timeline. But no big deal, he has a family no matter how it is formed. The 'apathy' of it exists, it just shows he has family. No more, no less.

I think forced diversity is a mistake if it is done for that purpose. Let's take Sherlock Holmes. Set in his time period he logically should be a caucasian male. You set the character now and he could be any gender or skin colour you like. Unless the only reason you made him a person of colour was to point to it for the audience. Say casting X unknown actor only because he is black. Versus casting Idris Elba because he is good. is the difference between forced and not so.

I also think there is a line if it is only permissible one way. Example, in a new Star Trek you cast Michael B. Jordan as captain Kirk. Applause! (And I think would be interesting to see.) But don't you dare recast Uhura as a white girl. . . What? Open casting should be open casting.