Charlottesville and Antifa

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think that its fair to blame the police. From what I've read, the police didn't intervene because this was a small town force, and the neo-Nazis were more numerous and better-armed than they were.

Which is a very, very serious problem, but one I'd rather see addressed via greater cooperation between police forces, greater restrictions on carrying arms at rallies where the law permits it, and if necessary, Left-wing activist groups using some of their funding to hire trained private security, rather than by encouraging a Left-wing militia-type movement. That will only lead to escalating street violence, and injury and death to innocent people (because militias tend to attract trigger-happy people without much training), and will play into Trump's attempt to treat both sides as equally guilty.

[The Romulan Republic]

Antifa are well on their way to living up to the authoritarians dressed in black of the past, and all while being laughably unaware of the historical irony of it all.

The thing about the statues is mainly the context of them, which is to say that they were only built in response to pushes for civil rights for non-whites. They were essentially a way of rubbing a middle finger in the face of anyone who believed in the cause of equal rights, as well as reminding non-whites of "their place." And speaking of historical irony, often these statues are honoring people who wanted no such honor. Lee, for example, wanted the South to move on, and actually renounced the CSA and his role in it. I think these monuments should be moved to sites specifically for the Civil War and its aftermath, with information about the original context of the statues' existence.

As for why people bring up communist statues, it's because communists killed and oppressed an awful lot of people - more than the Nazis even. It actually makes the CSA look like day care by comparison.

As for what happened with the car attack, that was straight up an act of terrorism - no different from the other examples that happened in Europe.

But communists aren't honored on public land in the United States, as a rule. White supremacist rebels and traitors are.

Moreover, the crimes in Charlottsville have basically nothing to do with communism. So bringing up "B-b-but Communists are bad too!" in a discussion of Charlottsville is simply an attempt to deflect attention off of the actual perpetrators of violence, and/or push the same kind of false equivalency narrative as Trump.

If you respond to an act of terrorism by white supremacists by immediately trying to shift the discussion onto "But what about the communists?", then you are tacitly condoning and supporting the white supremacists.

[LittleRaven]

I don't think that its fair to blame the police. From what I've read, the police didn't intervene because this was a small town force, and the neo-Nazis were more numerous and better-armed than they were.

To be fair, that assertion was made by the governor and was vigorously disputed by the police chief

Thomas denied that his officers were intimidated by the firepower of the protesters, including the presence of militia with military-style semiautomatic rifles, but said it was prudent for them to change into riot gear before returning to confront the violence. After clearing the park, it took police about an hour to regain control of the streets, and officers begin following different groups of “mutually combative” troublemakers but did not specify who Thomas thought was ultimately responsible for initiating the violence.

I don't know enough to say what, if anything went wrong with the police, but I'm sure there will be plenty of investigations.

[The Romulan Republic]

"We totally weren't scared, but thought we should change into riot gear before doing anything."

And the quoted passage does not actually deny the claim that the police were outnumbered, or outgunned.

[LittleRaven]

"We totally weren't scared, but thought we should change into riot gear before doing anything."

You don't change into riot gear if you're afraid of semi-automatic rifles. You strap bombs to drones and starting blowing people up. Riot gear is for dealing with bottles and clubs, not high-powered ammunition.

[Darth Wedgius]

I can say that, among the political right, it was a fairly commonly held belief that the Berkely police let Antifa have their way. I didn't research that, and I don't know how true that was. I do wonder if the left may see (or come to see) the Charlottesville police as behaving similarly toward the alt-right. We may end up with neither side really trusting the police to protect them.

If this kind of large-scale conflict happens again, with police standing on the sidelines, I hope governors start mobilizing the national guard in a buffer zone between the two sides.

[LittleRaven]

I can say that, among the political right, it was a fairly commonly held belief that the Berkely police let Antifa have their way.

Sure, but....well, let's just say that political right believes some REALLY weird things these days. 43% of Republicans thought Obama was a Muslim. 52% of Republicans thought Trump won the popular vote. These aren't complicated issues that can be spun different ways, they're just easily verifiable facts, and a shockingly large percentage of Republicans consistently ignore them. So I recommend strongly against relying on commonly held political beliefs from the right until this trend settles down. (It will, in time. I hope. Desperately.)

For what it's worth, police in Berkeley deny that they were letting anyone have their way. They claim that they simply had two crowds of people that were much bigger and much more eager to punch each other than they expected, and that tried to do their best with the manpower they had at the time. An investigation is ongoing.

If this kind of large-scale conflict happens again, with police standing on the sidelines, I hope governors start mobilizing the national guard in a buffer zone between the two sides.

Two things:

• First, while you can make an argument that police should have done things differently in both cases, in neither case did they simply stand on the sidelines. The police were out in force on both occasions, mostly attempting to do crowd control. It might be said that the response in both cases was underwhelming, but I'm willing to bet that both Charlottesville and Berkeley would prefer that to what overwhelming looks like.
• Second, no, no you do not. Anyone who leans to the right should recognize the enormous danger posed by trying to make soldiers do police duty. They aren't trained for it, they're not good at it, and they should always be an absolute last resort, because when they get brought out and things go bad, they go really, really bad.

[Darth Wedgius]

For what it's worth, police in Berkeley deny that they were letting anyone have their way. They claim that they simply had two crowds of people that were much bigger and much more eager to punch each other than they expected, and that tried to do their best with the manpower they had at the time.

That doesn't matter. It's entirely believable that the Berkely PD were just over their heads, but, regardless, they didn't do the job they were supposed to do. Maybe the Charlotteseville PD had the same thing happen. If it happens again, I don't see "Well, we'll try again. The PD is sure to get it right at some point."

Second, no, no you do not. Anyone who leans to the right should recognize the enormous danger posed by trying to make soldiers do police duty.

Pretty sure I do. Please don't tell me that I'm not thinking what I think I'm thinking -- between the Vulcans and the PsiCorps, you're running into serious union trouble for trying telepathy. The National Guard has screwed up in the past and undoubtedly will again, but they can do and have done vaguely police-type activity. And if the police cannot handle it, the National Guard is the next step up.

[LittleRaven]

That doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. There's a huge gulf between "We tried, but we didn't get it right." and "We just sat that one out." We live in an imperfect universe, and we always get imperfect results. All we can do is try harder next time.

The National Guard has screwed up in the past and undoubtedly will again, but they can do and have done vaguely police-type activity. And if the police cannot handle it, the National Guard is the next step up.

Ok....the Alt Right is currently planning events in Boston, Mountain View, Los Angeles, New York City, Washington, D.C., Austin, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, and Seattle. And that's just next weekend. Where should we deploy the guard? Everywhere?

The national guard is for emergencies. Neither Berkeley or Charlottesville comes remotely close to qualifying. Between the two events, we've had a single fatality and and a handful of injuries. Chicago has an order of magnitude more violence than that on a good weekend.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Maybe the Rebellion should have "Preserved History' instead of taring down Palpatine's Statue.
https://youtu.be/OScqRJcDWZ0