Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

For all topics regarding speculative fiction of every stripe. Otherwise known as the Geek Cave.
User avatar
KuudereKun
Officer
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by KuudereKun »

clearspira wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:23 am I do not understand how anyone can live in 2025 with 99% of all of humanity's collected knowledge at their fingertips and think that a book written thousands of years ago by people who had the barest fraction of our current knowledge regarding the universe can be taken literally. These people did not even know what a toilet is and yet they had some insight into the true creation of the universe? Come on now.

The historical events in it are probably on some level true because they keep on popping up elsewhere. There probably was some kind of big flood for example but that is as far as it goes.

Believe in God - that is absolutely fine. I don't but I'm also easy going about it. But believing that this thing holds the literal word of a creature beyond human comprehension and is passing down the actual word of creation is nonsense. Sorry, but it is.

Believe in God. Not what man says about God. They are two different things.
I'm a firmly Anti-Authoritarian Leftist with no desire to impose my Faith or Morality on others and a pretty permissive morality anyway.

So the fact that I believe "Absurd" things about the History of the Universe really need not worry you.
User avatar
clearspira
Overlord
Posts: 5968
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by clearspira »

KuudereKun wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 8:49 am
clearspira wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:23 am I do not understand how anyone can live in 2025 with 99% of all of humanity's collected knowledge at their fingertips and think that a book written thousands of years ago by people who had the barest fraction of our current knowledge regarding the universe can be taken literally. These people did not even know what a toilet is and yet they had some insight into the true creation of the universe? Come on now.

The historical events in it are probably on some level true because they keep on popping up elsewhere. There probably was some kind of big flood for example but that is as far as it goes.

Believe in God - that is absolutely fine. I don't but I'm also easy going about it. But believing that this thing holds the literal word of a creature beyond human comprehension and is passing down the actual word of creation is nonsense. Sorry, but it is.

Believe in God. Not what man says about God. They are two different things.
I'm a firmly Anti-Authoritarian Leftist with no desire to impose my Faith or Morality on others and a pretty permissive morality anyway.

So the fact that I believe "Absurd" things about the History of the Universe really need not worry you.
It doesn't worry me. It is quite simply beyond my comprehension. It makes as much sense to me as someone believing that the Earth is flat, that 5G causes cancer and vaccines carrying microchips. And I suspect that if you were born outside of a Christian country you would probably think so too.

But as I say, I am easy going. You may or may not be thinking that I am ridiculing but that is not true. Intent is hard to express in written form. I am just trying to answer the question as best I can. This is not a book to take literally because there is very little literal fact in it.

There probably was once a guy who stuffed his boat full of lifestock to avoid a flood. He wasn't however nearly a thousand years old. To take what is written here literally defies common sense.
User avatar
Nealithi
Captain
Posts: 1504
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:41 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by Nealithi »

clearspira wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:23 am I do not understand how anyone can live in 2025 with 99% of all of humanity's collected knowledge at their fingertips and think that a book written thousands of years ago by people who had the barest fraction of our current knowledge regarding the universe can be taken literally. These people did not even know what a toilet is and yet they had some insight into the true creation of the universe? Come on now.

The historical events in it are probably on some level true because they keep on popping up elsewhere. There probably was some kind of big flood for example but that is as far as it goes.

Believe in God - that is absolutely fine. I don't but I'm also easy going about it. But believing that this thing holds the literal word of a creature beyond human comprehension and is passing down the actual word of creation is nonsense. Sorry, but it is.

Believe in God. Not what man says about God. They are two different things.
The argument on age does not work. Old math still works despite age.
I even think Noah's ark to be true. From a certain point of view. And that is not the Star Wars cop-out.
Noah saw a problem coming, a flood. Tries to warn his neighbors and they doubt him. He crazily builds a big boat and loads it with a breeding pair of every animal, he owns. Note the end qualifier. He then gets his family aboard as the disaster happens, his neighbors are swept away. After a time he releases a dove to see if it comes back with anything. It brings back some ivy, he is near land.
To him and his family their whole world got washed away in that flood. They recorded it as they saw it happen.

They never lied, but their perspective was not that large.

Now note we are not reading a several thousand year old accounting. We are reading printings that were edited for political reasons. Like removing the word tyrant and allusions of over throwing them. But King James was an honorable man.

The problem today is not the book. It is how many were taught it is the work of the one true God and can never be questioned. Any who do ask you to question it are the Deceiver themselves.
User avatar
BridgeConsoleMasher
Overlord
Posts: 11770
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Nealithi wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 12:26 pm
clearspira wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:23 am I do not understand how anyone can live in 2025 with 99% of all of humanity's collected knowledge at their fingertips and think that a book written thousands of years ago by people who had the barest fraction of our current knowledge regarding the universe can be taken literally. These people did not even know what a toilet is and yet they had some insight into the true creation of the universe? Come on now.

The historical events in it are probably on some level true because they keep on popping up elsewhere. There probably was some kind of big flood for example but that is as far as it goes.

Believe in God - that is absolutely fine. I don't but I'm also easy going about it. But believing that this thing holds the literal word of a creature beyond human comprehension and is passing down the actual word of creation is nonsense. Sorry, but it is.

Believe in God. Not what man says about God. They are two different things.
The argument on age does not work. Old math still works despite age.
I even think Noah's ark to be true. From a certain point of view. And that is not the Star Wars cop-out.
Noah saw a problem coming, a flood. Tries to warn his neighbors and they doubt him. He crazily builds a big boat and loads it with a breeding pair of every animal, he owns. Note the end qualifier. He then gets his family aboard as the disaster happens, his neighbors are swept away. After a time he releases a dove to see if it comes back with anything. It brings back some ivy, he is near land.
To him and his family their whole world got washed away in that flood. They recorded it as they saw it happen.

They never lied, but their perspective was not that large.

Now note we are not reading a several thousand year old accounting. We are reading printings that were edited for political reasons. Like removing the word tyrant and allusions of over throwing them. But King James was an honorable man.

The problem today is not the book. It is how many were taught it is the work of the one true God and can never be questioned. Any who do ask you to question it are the Deceiver themselves.
It could have just been a village or something. Somebody stored more food than normal and was thought of as a slob. A storm wrecked a certain number of people's livelihood , but this old coot had some food that was preserved a bit longer in his cellar. After feeding the people in need, the entire village realized how important the random act of building the underground cellar was for an event that was beyond the utterly common weather routines imaginable that would have compromised the concurrent agricultural system. I don't want to go on with this metaphor because there's probably some reliable record of a flood that someone's gonna chime in with, but yeah that's how legends can come about.
A world on fire.
User avatar
hammerofglass
Captain
Posts: 2940
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:17 pm
Location: Corning, NY

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by hammerofglass »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 1:38 pm
Nealithi wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 12:26 pm
clearspira wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 7:23 am I do not understand how anyone can live in 2025 with 99% of all of humanity's collected knowledge at their fingertips and think that a book written thousands of years ago by people who had the barest fraction of our current knowledge regarding the universe can be taken literally. These people did not even know what a toilet is and yet they had some insight into the true creation of the universe? Come on now.

The historical events in it are probably on some level true because they keep on popping up elsewhere. There probably was some kind of big flood for example but that is as far as it goes.

Believe in God - that is absolutely fine. I don't but I'm also easy going about it. But believing that this thing holds the literal word of a creature beyond human comprehension and is passing down the actual word of creation is nonsense. Sorry, but it is.

Believe in God. Not what man says about God. They are two different things.
The argument on age does not work. Old math still works despite age.
I even think Noah's ark to be true. From a certain point of view. And that is not the Star Wars cop-out.
Noah saw a problem coming, a flood. Tries to warn his neighbors and they doubt him. He crazily builds a big boat and loads it with a breeding pair of every animal, he owns. Note the end qualifier. He then gets his family aboard as the disaster happens, his neighbors are swept away. After a time he releases a dove to see if it comes back with anything. It brings back some ivy, he is near land.
To him and his family their whole world got washed away in that flood. They recorded it as they saw it happen.

They never lied, but their perspective was not that large.

Now note we are not reading a several thousand year old accounting. We are reading printings that were edited for political reasons. Like removing the word tyrant and allusions of over throwing them. But King James was an honorable man.

The problem today is not the book. It is how many were taught it is the work of the one true God and can never be questioned. Any who do ask you to question it are the Deceiver themselves.
It could have just been a village or something. Somebody stored more food than normal and was thought of as a slob. A storm wrecked a certain number of people's livelihood , but this old coot had some food that was preserved a bit longer in his cellar. After feeding the people in need, the entire village realized how important the random act of building the underground cellar was for an event that was beyond the utterly common weather routines imaginable that would have compromised the concurrent agricultural system. I don't want to go on with this metaphor because there's probably some reliable record of a flood that someone's gonna chime in with, but yeah that's how legends can come about.
Sure I'll chime in: the earliest version of the story is Ziasudra's flood mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Local flood in Shuruppak that does have geological evidence for it.
Tragedy tomorrow; comedy tonight!
User avatar
CharlesPhipps
Overlord
Posts: 5262
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by CharlesPhipps »

No, because a huge chunk was parables to begin with.

It was originally the Farmer's Almanac of Jewish history, laws, and mythology.

Then it had a bunch of letters by the early Church that were influenced by a bunch of people who went in their own directions.
User avatar
Durandal_1707
Captain
Posts: 826
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:24 am

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by Durandal_1707 »

McAvoy wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 3:52 am However imagine, you are not me. You are placed in a more strict church environment where not only do you go to church on Sunday mornings but evenings, but also on Wednesday nights. Your whole local culture revolves around this. Even your own schools semi-helps with this because you are in a Bible thumping area. Your family also has directly benefited from the charity of your church.

You grow up knowing, not thinking that your church is normal and the correct way. Atheists you were taught were God haters. Evolution is false, we didn't come from monkeys. You were taught cherry picked passages your whole life, you may have read the Bible once but you rely on just those Bible passages that was hammered in your head.

You now view the world from nearly entirely of your religious upbringing. You were taught that elevated feeling when you sing and talk about God and Jesus that is them in your heart. So anything that runs contrary to your worldview based on those decades of indoctrination is false.

Now combine that with politics.
Well, there is one way out of that mindset, which I know because I experienced it: reading the Bible too much. (It is possible that being a huge nerd may also be a requirement, as you'll probably notice from the rest of this post.)

Here's what broke my little brain at 11 years old or so:

Matthew 1 has a genealogy of Christ. In order to say that Jesus is descended from King David, it goes down the line of the Kings of Judah; David, Soloman, Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, etc.

But, it screws it up. It says that Jehoram was the father of Uzziah. That is wrong. Uzziah's father was Amaziah. And Amaziah's father was Joash. Joash's father was Ahaziah, and Ahaziah was the one who's father was Jehoram. Now you could make the point that since Uzziah was ultimately descended from Jehoram, Jehoram could be in some way his "father", but then Matthew 1:17 goes on to say:
Matthew 1:17 wrote:Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
It specifically calls out there being fourteen generations from David to the exile, and that's just wrong. You only have fourteen because you skipped a bunch of them! Somebody fudged things to make their numerology work out. What the heck.

The rabbit hole then goes even deeper when you notice that Luke 3, famously, has another genealogy of Christ, but it has him descend from one of David's other sons, not Solomon, so the whole genealogy is different. Well, almost all different! The first two post-exile names in the Matthew geneaology, Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, show up in the middle of the Luke one for some reason, another wtf.

(Of course, the standard received wisdom on the two genealogies of Christ is that one of them is of Joseph and one is of Mary. But this also doesn't stand up to a literal interpretation, because both gospels specifically say that they're the genealogies of Joseph.)

Anyway, there are of course lots of weird inconsistencies like that you can find in the Bible, but that's the one that set my brain off way back then. The irony of it all is that I probably never would have noticed any of that, and consequently might even have still been Christian today, if my religious grade school hadn't made me memorize the names of all the kings of Israel and Judah.
User avatar
KuudereKun
Officer
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by KuudereKun »

Hebrew Genealogies skipping generations is normal.

Luke 3 follows Mary's line rather then Joseph's, in the Grammar of the Greek Joseph is not part of the Genealogy. So yes that is still a Literal reading.
User avatar
Durandal_1707
Captain
Posts: 826
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:24 am

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Again, it literally follows that up by explicitly saying that there are fourteen generations, which would only be true if they hadn't skipped any there.

And Luke 3 does specifically say Joseph, not Mary:

https://biblehub.com/texts/luke/3-23.htm
User avatar
KuudereKun
Officer
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:39 pm
Contact:

Re: Is the Bible necessarily supposed to be taken literally?

Post by KuudereKun »

Which is the point, they wanted it to be 14 for some Symbolic reason.
Post Reply