Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[TGLS]

taken as a child to be raised with certain views, so that in another life I might prioritize unfeeling public service over a romantic attachment, and for me, doing good is important, but I equally want to find love out of life. That's one of my goals. My thinking is the Jedi have no freedom in the matter, nor any more than I would in that situation.

I went to a Catholic school when I was school-aged. Among other things, there was instilled with a bunch Catholic values and articles of faith and such. Now, I basically ignore all that. It's absurd to say that the Jedi have no freedom to decide for themselves how they want to live their life because they have been instilled values about chastity.

[animalia]

@Jonathan101 But there is power in the individual, the freedom of making your own choices, and from what I see, neither Sith or Jedi are all about individual freedom. The Jedi place too much emphasis on the greater good, the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, and community over the singular or a handful of people. And of course, the Sith preach individuality, but they fall short of it in the end. It's only the "illusion" of freedom they have. This is another area KOTOR 2 shines in. Shows ordinary people who can kill off Jedi and Sith. In many ways, the average people in the galaxy have it better than Jedi and Sith do. I see both Jedi and Sith as just being slaves to the Force. It's just a matter of degree. And perhaps the Sith commit mass murder. That's wrong and I won't defend it. But it's hardly as if the Jedi were at times any better. Standing back and letting millions or billions die in the Mandalorian Wars, for example, simply out of fear of the dark side. Which one is worse? The murderer, or the one who had the power to stop them, but wouldn't step in? I know TOR retconned this, but I find that to be bullshit, tbh. It is undeniable fact without Revan, the galaxy would have fallen to the Mandalorians.

Leave the order at any time... yet there is social conditioning there that has Jedi assuming this superior, familyphobic view. Look at Olee Starstone from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader? And yet, forming attachments is at the core of the human, or mortal, experience. She fails to realize she's a hypocrite until the very end, just as attached to the order as to a lover or romantic partner. So don't tell me that the Jedi weren't attached to the organization they had. They're hypocrites. I always saw them, following the prequels, as these kind of uptight, conservative, stuffy monks afraid of human touch, but that's been bred into them. I don't see the Jedi as having any choice in whether or not they choose to mate because it's being shoved into their heads by those that teach them. It really feels like social conditioning, and it shows the depth to what they're frightened by the dark side. Anakin is treated with kid gloves by the Jedi Council (Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization) because they're afraid of what he represents, life raised without the Force. And they feared the Exile for the same reason. To live life without the Force. It is not exaggeration to say the Jedi don't understand the beings they serve in the galaxy, the kind of lives they lead, as they are insulated from it. Sheltered. That's why they can so casually stand by and let billions of people die to the invading Mandalorian hordes. That's not out of character, that is consistent with their beliefs, which only got more dogmatic over time. Dogma is never right. Taking babies from their cribs to draft into a lifetime of public service when they can't make an educated decision on whether or not that's what they want is wrong. They have no say in the matter. They never think about the needs of their individual Jedi. And look at how many Jedi had to hide their marriages in secret. Anakin. Nejaa Halcyon. Plenty of married Jedi in the Legends EU prior to the years of the prequels, so obviously they had to hide it. Hell, Ki-Adi-Mundi is openly married! Everyone knows he is! So the Jedi don't frown on marriage, or taking lovers... just attachments. When they are as attached to the holy, precious Jedi Order as much as a lover or wife. Please. They are hypocrites. This is why I see them as only little better. They are hypocrites without even realizing it. Like Communist Party officials drinking lavishly and living it up in luxury while the common man suffered. Turning a blind eye to mass rape but when a desperate woman offers herself to an officer for protection, he'll abuse said rape victim and take advantage of her just as much as his men did without hesitation. I see the Jedi as being Communists and the Sith as Fascists. And both those ideological philosophies can be abused terribly.

That may be the original intent, but it's not how the rest of the series sold it. I know it's to keep drama going, but fact remains when you stack up Legends and eventually probably the Disney canon up against Lucas's original intent, it's not going to work. And it's a way the Force has a hold over us. Light and dark locked into a constant, never-ending, ceaseless war against itself, just to maintain balance. Balance, by its nature, is not shifted to one side. That's favoritism. Balance is not about favoritism. Balance is truly equal. Either learn to wield both sides of the Force (it can be done) or just refuse to use it. Turn away from the Force and if not that then at least learn to rely more on yourself first, before resorting to it. It's important to learn to live life as a person, and not a blind slave to dogma.

@mathewgsmith Calling everything she says a lie is absolutely false. She's lying about her past, why she's here, etc, etc, but her philosophy is the most real in all of Star Wars. We do achieve definition in conflict, don't we? And the galactic power is just a shell to surround whichever Force power holds on to it. And there really is a difference between a fall and a sacrifice. Or how people are sometimes slaves to their beliefs to the point that they don't even know it. Again, take the Jedi. Just as much slaves to the light as the Sith are to the darkness. If Disney ever remakes a "canon" KOTOR 2, God help us, because they just won't understand her character at all.

Speaking of KOTOR have your read the KOTOR comics? The main character despite being a failed padawan. Is in my mind the shining example of what a Jedi SHOULD be. He neither accepts his so called destiny or runs from but faces it. When his name is cleared and is given the chance to be a jedi he truns it down, not out of disprescpect out of the Jedi, which you would think could happen given what he's been thorugh, but because he has seen that in how often the Jedi are focused on the big picture they get lost on the small details. So as a result he sticks to helping the little people. But its still with an eye towards how helping the little people impacts things on a bigger scale. In short the bigger picture is made up of smaller pictures or "All the pieces matter" What's more the mentor who shaped him the most wasn't any of the jedi masters he had , who ultimately framed him for a murder, but a small time thief and conman, that he ended up in bed with when on the run. They both shaped ech toher's life for the positive teaching each other how to be better. Many people see the master student relationship as one sided, but in a positive relationship the student teaches the master just as much as the master teaches the student. Speaking of Zayne (That's the MC's name) he leaned while out in the world) the problem with the Jedi as seen in the prequel era isn't even that they are a monastic order, but that they enter that order as CHILDREN.

With most monastic orders, the individual makes the choice to enter that when they are an ADULT by the time they have experienced the world and other places and people so they know if entering it is right for them or not. The Jedi cut out the world and have limited interactions with it so that by the time it comes to make a choice they have limited experience with the outside world. Even if they were to leave for it they would have trouble catching up.

Do you want a real life equivalent to the Jedi? Try (At least some communites of the) Amish. And no that's not about being anti-technology, as many communities will allow votes on what technology will be allowed and they often do use a fair bit to help run their business. Or the way they dress. It's about a tradition. and forgive if if it's no longer in use, about pulling their kids out of school for two years to live back home with them before sending them back to school for a couple of weeks to decide if the lifestyle is for them or not. The problem is as mentioned, that even the ones who decide two leave then have to deal with the fact that they are TWO YEARS behind in school with a lot of catching up to do. TAT IS DIFFICULT. What's more if you dare to google it the Amish like any insular communites have their dark side as well) This is not so much a part of an attempt to vilify the Amish as many of them are still perfectly reasonably people just like many of the prequel Jedi still are. I am just pointing out that if you want a real-world analogue of this kind of society as well of the kinds of problems that come with it. This is the best one I can think of.

[GandALF]

Speaking of KOTOR have your read the KOTOR comics? The main character despite being a failed padawan. Is in my mind the shining example of what a Jedi SHOULD be. He neither accepts his so called destiny or runs from but faces it. When his name is cleared and is given the chance to be a jedi he truns it down, not out of disprescpect out of the Jedi, which you would think could happen given what he's been thorugh, but because he has seen that in how often the Jedi are focused on the big picture they get lost on the small details. So as a result he sticks to helping the little people. But its still with an eye towards how helping the little people impacts things on a bigger scale. In short the bigger picture is made up of smaller pictures or "All the pieces matter" What's more the mentor who shaped him the most wasn't any of the jedi masters he had , who ultimately framed him for a murder, but a small time thief and conman, that he ended up in bed with when on the run. They both shaped ech toher's life for the positive teaching each other how to be better. Many people see the master student relationship as one sided, but in a positive relationship the student teaches the master just as much as the master teaches the student. Speaking of Zayne (That's the MC's name) he leaned while out in the world) the problem with the Jedi as seen in the prequel era isn't even that they are a monastic order, but that they enter that order as CHILDREN.

But Lucien's whole problem is that his being from an aristocratic family made him prideful, he even freaks out in an Anakin-esque way when his mother dies. The names of the story arcs even foreshadow it by echoing Yoda's warning:

Days of fear
Nights of anger
Daze of hate
Knights of suffering

The Jedi Covenant's whole shtick is about fear, they broke rule no. 1

[animalia]

Still a good series, and the point still stands. Luke entered latter in life then his father did and he was fine. The whole NEEDING to be trained young is a bunch of crap. It's the EASY path. That's all.

[Yukaphile]

By the time of the prequels, if you were married, and had formed an attachment, you could be cast out of the order. So there you go. As I said, the Jedi has no business regulating what goes on in a Jedi's private life.

[CharlesPhipps]

It should be noted in real life that monasteries of both the Christian and Buddhist faith have raised MILLIONS of orphans or unwanted children.

Seriously. There wasn't much in the way of child services Pre-20th century.

Many of them became monks.

Most...did not.

[TGLS]

By the time of the prequels, if you were married, and had formed an attachment, you could be cast out of the order. So there you go. As I said, the Jedi has no business regulating what goes on in a Jedi's private life.

If I'm a professor and I have get into a relationship with one of my students, there are likely consequences to my career. It's a freely made decision, weighing career against relationships. It's not like Yoda hunts down any Jedi who marries and kills them.

[Yukaphile]

I'm not implying that. Just that with that social conditioning they don't know what they're missing, is how I see it. That's also a bad analogy. It implies the Jedi are superior to us, know more, when really, theirs is not a definitive, absolute view, just their belief, and we as children. That need guidance.

[CharlesPhipps]

I'm not implying that. Just that with that social conditioning they don't know what they're missing, is how I see it. That's also a bad analogy. It implies the Jedi are superior to us, know more, when really, theirs is not a definitive, absolute view, just their belief, and we as children. That need guidance.

Jedi are definitely wiser, better people than the majority of the galaxy but in-universe and out.

"You're not better than me! You just spend your entire life serving people, renouncing wealth, and working to peaceful resolutions with others!"
-Average Galactic Citizen

[Wargriffin]

I'm not implying that. Just that with that social conditioning they don't know what they're missing, is how I see it. That's also a bad analogy. It implies the Jedi are superior to us, know more, when really, theirs is not a definitive, absolute view, just their belief, and we as children. That need guidance.

Jedi are definitely wiser, better people than the majority of the galaxy but in-universe and out.

"You're not better than me! You just spend your entire life serving people, renouncing wealth, and working to peaceful resolutions with others!"
-Average Galactic Citizen

Those Sith guys got the right idea about Freedom!

I mean that Bane is the best example, Murdered EVERYBODY else so he'd be right by default then immediately went back on his own philosophy... Its very human and relatable.