DS9: Business as Usual

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

As Sisko constantly reminds people, it's a Bajoran space station, the Federation just helps run it, hence why when the Bajoran government stepped in within the episode, despite how furious it made them, Sisko and Kira and Odo had no choice but to back off. And I can't see them doing that if it wasn't a legitimate business similar to the NRA because again, they still have power and people still buy guns even after what I'd termed the moral event horizon for the "gun issue" with Newtown, and yet people still buy weapons and romanticize them in our violent culture, so why not apply that to a galactic scale as well? I don't see that as being unrealistic - as long as it's taking place outside the Federation, certainly.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.

[bronnt]

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.

Sometimes people can't stop themselves from ranting about a pet political issue, even when it's not really relevant.

[Yukaphile]

Am I really doing that? The issue of black market sales, gun trafficking, and how that relates to commerce is a topic for debate here. I'm not really going off topic. You're just dismissing me and accusing me of ranting without any basis in fact. THIS WOULD BE RANTING!!! If it seems that way, well, then I'm sorry, but that's not the case. I'm trying to contribute to a discussion while being reasonable without going overboard, and people misunderstand me. Isn't that going off topic?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Actually Yuka I just wasn't clear on when the Bijoran government intervened on the matter, as you were saying. And I'm not really sure it matters if it's considered a black market, though the moral implications I feel outweigh any broadened world government policy in Bijoran space.

Really though all that seems to be in the way of binding policy is the administration on DS9. Quark comes off as shady to the rest of the crew and gets all but official sanctioning, but the real brank of the matter is the 28 million people. I don't see it making a difference whether the people Quark selling to is a government, and I'm fairly certain it's not the Bijoran government given it probably wouldn't be an issue with the three officers at that point.

[Yukaphile]

Well, I can't disagree on the moral standpoint, given even selling to one tyrant who murders millions is still too far, as Sir Will said earlier, and in any decent universe, the Regent would have been tried for crimes against humanity. I do wanna ponder, what if more good comes from that? Like, say, if he was an outlier, and they had sold to a mostly larger group of people who liberated their worlds from oppressive, Nazi or Soviet-level Fascist empires? What then? I feel DS9 is uniquely suited to explore such a question, but it's not addressed here.

He is shady, but so is Garak, and he's tolerated perhaps more, but then Quark also has the Ferengi reputation (also deserved) dragging him down. And as I said above, I can't disagree morally. A legitimate government can still be evil. In fact, I don't recall how this began - this conversation, so... I guess I'll concede the point?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well, I can't disagree on the moral standpoint, given even selling to one tyrant who murders millions is still too far, as Sir Will said earlier, and in any decent universe, the Regent would have been tried for crimes against humanity. I do wanna ponder, what if more good comes from that? Like, say, if he was an outlier, and they had sold to a mostly larger group of people who liberated their worlds from oppressive, Nazi or Soviet-level Fascist empires? What then? I feel DS9 is uniquely suited to explore such a question, but it's not addressed here.

He is shady, but so is Garak, and he's tolerated perhaps more, but then Quark also has the Ferengi reputation (also deserved) dragging him down. And as I said above, I can't disagree morally. A legitimate government can still be evil. In fact, I don't recall how this began - this conversation, so... I guess I'll concede the point?

Then it would just be a different episode. Nobody is really being forced to speculate on whether selling guns is good or bad, it's just simply against the rules on DS9 and that's where the drama is stirring, as I was saying. When you ask about if they sold guns as liberators 10x more, that's exactly what Kira is supposed to represent. So when you ask, well the episode says that killing 28 million people is bad, but what if they did this instead? it's like asking what if there were a bunch more people like Kira in the episode. Quark might be in better standing as far as selling weapons on Ds9. But like I said, that's not what the episode is about, and in principle she services that aspect just fine on her own.

As far as Quark being shady all I'm talking about is what starts changing people's mind about him in this episode. Garak doesn't change things. And I'm not talking about them turning on him because he's shady in general, that's what they're already looking past, explicitly stated in the episode. He's a likeable guy, and interesting too as he has latent principles despite his Ferangi nature. As Chuck said, he's a people person, and to me it seems like he's a guy who works his Ferangi magic but also knows what a person really wants, not just how to get what he wants.

Oh wait. You're asking if 28 million people were an outlier? It's not really a consideration. For the government obviously, but for Quark as well. There's the aspect of if he would know about it maybe, but that doesn't make for interesting drama. The show establishes that he knows about it, and they give circumstances that make it hard for him to back out. His conscience is pretty much the only difference in the matter. Personally I think that makes for a good reason for background checks. Even drugs fit in to that. Why do you want drugs only being sold by people instead of being regulated in a market?

[Artabax]

Bajorans needed guns to save Homeworld from the Cardassi, so they were grateful to the Black market Smuggler who sold them guns. He broke Cardassi Law, he broke Fed Law even more so.
Surely if it is the Cosmic Plan that Cardassi genocide Bajor, it would be the height of hubris to stop them.
Worst of all, by helping the Bajoran Revolution, he made Bajoran Law a thing. Ryker defined that Cosmic Plan = genocide Bajor. Black market Smuggler broke Cosmic Law TM

And he maintained the Iron Law. Trek is famous for its anti-Capitalist rants and this episode is the bestest anti-Capitalist rant of them all.

Suppose the weapons factories are nationalized, then the Nation sends out spies to detect what threats to Homeworld and assigns X% of Workers to the Weapon factories, Y% to the Militia, Z% build Bridges and Hospitals and Observatories etc.

In this Episode, Bosses own the weapon factories. So Bosses need to sell more and more weapons. So Bosses need to forment more and more wars.

Bestest anti Capitalist rant evah!!!

Likewise Quark always talks Profit, but the Engines cannae take it, Captain.

[Yukaphile]

For the record, I'm only speculating theoretically - that the 28,000,000 were an outlier. Just for the sake of argument. I personally don't think it was. Scarily enough, it could even have been a good deal higher in a few instances... thus I don't think it was a black market business, but I don't think they were... very good people, just typical of the kind of mindset that fuels the NRA gunmakers who lead the organization, but they won't admit to - "We're willing to sell to anyone who wants a gun!" Because mass murder and a climate of paranoia and fear leads to more sales since people want to protect themselves. They just can't say that because political backlash would end them. I am willing, however, to see the speck of good within the bad. That some of those they sold to weren't the Hitlers or Stalins of planets, or for a lesser variant, al Qaeda or ISIS, but legitimate freedom fighters. That is good. That good cannot overcome the bad. But how much of the good CAN be weighed against the bad? To that, we'll never know.

I still think... well, here's the problem regarding the DS9 crew's reaction, and it really goes back to what some earlier had said about it being "self-righteous indignation" rather than disappointment in the same vein as the Federation's other holier-than-thou views. It's that I, a so-called "unenlightened" 21st century human, can sympathize with Quark. To claim he's ONLY motivated by greed is just not so. Quark is far more complicated than that, just like Garak. As others had pointed out, he was facing serious financial problems that, well... the Federation wasn't helping him with, after they had gone out of their way to put him back in business, and recall in "Emissary" that Sisko wanted him to be the community leader. I know that they don't grasp economics, and... it is true they're not obligated to help him, but when you set someone up as community leader, blackmail them to stay, then yank them around acting all happy if they were to leave on repeated occasions, only to once again stand with them in solidarity, you're kind of sending mixed messages. So in my opinion, after "Body Parts," they at least should have offered to help - though did they? It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so maybe the offer was given given and he turned it down. Ultimately, I think it's very possible Quark could have been put out of business if not for the brief money he made from Gaila's associates. Not defending him. I'm just pointing that out. A key note to remember is that Quark does not belong to and live among the Federation, and he's not even in Federation territory, but Bajoran space, which is an economy based on capitalism. The thing I'm trying to say with all this rambling is that I could understand how Quark could be put into a corner where he could be driven to desperation into a bad situation like this, and gets in over his head. And he does refuse to stand with his business partners when it's clear they're bloodthirsty monsters, don't forget or undervalue that. In that respect, it's like a metaphor for the stereotypical straight-laced kid falling into the "cool and rebellious delinquent" crowd, but ultimately rejecting them once they are shown to be engaging in some vice or crossing a moral boundary with their behavior that he refuses to. How does this tie into the point at the beginning? That's how I see it. You'd think a society that so masturbates on the perfection of humanity could see it too, and be less judgmental. Hell, this reminds me of how Riker and Picard, but most especially Riker, were holding a grudge against Ensign Ro for... her so-called despicable crimes that, to be frank, didn't seem that dissimilar from Tom Paris or Nick Locarno. Granted, we don't see the incident, but I can't see supposedly "evolved" human beings holding grudges to that extent or visibly restraining it, barely making an effort to hide it, but trying to be more sympathetic. Even if I didn't like her, I could hide it better - and this again from the supposedly "unevolved" 21st century human. I think that's the issue with how the DS9 staff react to all this. It ties into the larger arrogance of the 24th century Federation, and that rubs some people the wrong way.

Just food for thought. XD

[Nealithi]

Just my thoughts from the review. Quark is losing his shirt financially and struggling to keep the bar open. Noting he also sells real drinks, not just replicated synthehol. So he has to bring in actual stock and may be missing suppliers. He had no sympathy for a 'mere business', so is likely at the bottom of shipping concerns unless he practically smuggles things in. Sisko blackmailed him to remain. But everyone seems to want him gone. Gee couldn't have let him go back in the beginning eh? Then he takes on a legal bit of work using his holosuites. So Odo plans to gleefully arrest him in the spirit of him showing off weapons. Okay, going to arrest O'Brian and Bashir over flying Spitfires simulating WW2? They are both still just video games. What the client in the suite does after is their business. So Quark is less likely to get legal aid, and bullied for doing something actually legal. And they wonder why he might choose to do the illegal things???
Now why would the general want a bio/chemical weapon instead of an orbital bombardment? Two reasons. Fear and cost. Fear of what he is capable of doing. Cost in the infrastructure of the gassed area is intact. All he had to do is have the bodies cleaned up and send in new people to work there.
Neat and horrifically simple. And as pointed out, way far from being grey.

Why were the Federation characters wrong? Quark was not breaking the law. Therefore did not need special dispensation from Bajor. His clientele can't be criminals. Because if an actual criminal came aboard then they have every right to arrest that person. Even if they were not breaking the law at the moment. That is the point of being wanted. So Quark can demonstrate perfectly legal items to legal customers. And Odo should have seen it as a trap he could use to bring people to justice. And they should have trusted Quark. He is not above smuggling. He is above people getting hurt because of his actions.

[bronnt]

Now why would the general want a bio/chemical weapon instead of an orbital bombardment? Two reasons. Fear and cost. Fear of what he is capable of doing. Cost in the infrastructure of the gassed area is intact. All he had to do is have the bodies cleaned up and send in new people to work there.
Neat and horrifically simple. And as pointed out, way far from being grey.

Again, this is perfectly reasonable, but it's completely incongruous with his dialogue in the scene, which is why the episode completely lost me.

All he wants to do is kill as many people as possible in order to send a message, and that's all he talks about it. James Bond villains are more complex than this guy since they're usually killing people as part of a grander plan.

Him discussing, "I want to depopulate a massive area of this continent, with minimal damage to the infrastructure. Then the area will be ripe for resettlement and I'll have access to all their resources, including substantial dilithium deposits." It's not any less evil if he says this, just discussing the elements of his evil plan. Then you could have Gaila say something like, "How many people live on the continent?" and he could ballpark the estimate as 28 million. Quark would then ask if these are military, and would be told they're all civilians. It would read like a natural scene and the Regent would still sound evil, but he'd be an evil person instead of an evil caricature.

But no, he wants to buy weapons, so there's zero thought put into what drives this person other than that he wants to kill people.