Picard - Remembrance

[Riedquat]

Now in regards to "this show too SJW" type complaints, I feel there's two major groups to address here- the dishonest, honest-to-god racists/sexists who are just trying to rile people up, and people who say this because it's a popular refrain in modern times even when it makes no sense. I'd like to think we in agreement the former should not be paid any attention by creators of Trek and just generally deserve ridicule.

But who are the former? There's a tendency to quickly chuck people who don't automatically accept whatever current line of thinking is popular into that category. "Don't blindly accept? Must be racist / sexist / troll." That's a form of bigotry in its own right; no-one can claim to be progressive and have such a closed mind. I see in it, at root, pretty much the same mentality that kept bigotry going for so long; the basic position might well be much less obnoxious but the mentality is little different.

[MixedDrops]

Ah yes, the good ol' "The anti racists are just as bad as the racists" line.

If you are an American, I assume you are familiar with the political term "states rights" and the baggage associated with that term (If not, a simple google search should illuminate you). If someone went around constantly spouting states rights in political conversations, I might raise an eyebrow. Maybe they'd fall back on saying that they just genuinely believe in states rights in a very literal sense, and maybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt- it'd be context dependent most likely- but if someone was aware enough, they should've known that dropping that term would've been in their best interest if they want to avoid any misunderstandings, which brings us back to why I raised my eyebrow in the first place.

On that same token, if someone is constantly saying "this is SJW shit" without any hint of irony (especially with the years and years of baggage associated with the term) they need to be either ready to explain themselves, or they should've known to drop the term long ago.

Terms have meanings. You might be right that as a purely intellectual pursuit it would be ideal to sit down and try to hash out if someone spouting racist/whatever dog whistles doesn't actually believe what they're saying, or maybe they just misunderstand that what they're saying might be seen as such, or maybe they're not actually that racist/whatever deep inside, but most of us don't have the time for that and are going to take what people say for exactly what it means. It's your duty to make sure you are not misunderstood. And even when it happens, it's not difficult to explain yourself.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Nobody has to accept that "too SJW" people and "not progressive enough" people are equivalent. Everybody has an opinion.

DS9 had humans supporting their economic system of having moved beyond money (leaving aside those times humans used money in Trek), but it also had Nog supporting Ferengi use of money, and then explaining it to O'Brien. The great river isn't that far from the invisible hand. And Jake still needed Nog's money. Both cultures had their points.

DS9 did that right, IMO. War is incredibly horrible, but sometimes it's not the worst alternative. There are laws meant to protect a lot of people, but sometimes they penalize people who did nothing really dangerous. People can do terrible things with the best of intentions. The Maquis were not right, exactly, but they weren't exactly wrong, either.

According to StarTrek.com:

On Star Trek: Picard our beloved admiral is forced to reckon with his privilege as a Starfleet officer from a planetary superpower.

Privilege? Really? Up to this point, rank in Starfleet was something earned. It came with authority and responsibility in a way Peter Parker would have approved of.

Now Brexit may (or may not be) an unwise choice, but Stewart seems to think Brexit is morally wrong. That an ever-closer union is a moral requirement, as far as I can tell. He also said he considered perhaps a ban on men running for office for 20 years.

Well - of course being a Starfleet officer is earned, but all those ranks come with their own set of rights and privileges.
Not everyone can command a Galaxy-Class-Starship - that's your right and your privilege as Captain.
Not everyone can be on earth, deciding which part of Starfleet will protect Sector 001 and which ship will go out and do the exploring. That's your right and your privilege as an Admiral.

And it's Stewart's own choice if he wants to make a version of "Star Trek: Brexit", which, honestly is only a small part of Picard. First and foremost, STP is an adventure show with parts told as a Detective Story, a Heist story, a base under siege story...

If it would be helping, if men would not be running for office, is something, that can be doubted. I'm from Germany, we have a woman as chancellor and - not everything is hunkydory. Quite the contrary. But it might help if the alpha-males like Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro or just simple Horst Seehofer, would stop being such idiots during trying times like these.

Ah yes, the good ol' "The anti racists are just as bad as the racists" line

How very trumpian. Not of you, Mixed Drops, mind you, but the tired old canard: "I know some good people on both sides".

On that same token, if someone is constantly saying "this is SJW shit" without any hint of irony (especially with the years and years of baggage associated with the term) they need to be either ready to explain themselves, or they should've known to drop the term long ago.

Very true, very true.

Terms have meanings. You might be right that as a purely intellectual pursuit it would be ideal to sit down and try to hash out if someone spouting racist/whatever dog whistles doesn't actually believe what they're saying, or maybe they just misunderstand that what they're saying might be seen as such, or maybe they're not actually that racist/whatever deep inside, but most of us don't have the time for that and are going to take what people say for exactly what it means. It's your duty to make sure you are not misunderstood. And even when it happens, it's not difficult to explain yourself.

Indeed.
Personally, I'd say: Normally ever opinion needs to be heard. If one thinks, it's a good idea to spice up the opinion with racist / sexist crap, however, the opinion is not made stronger, quite the contrary, it's weakened.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Jake still needed Nog's money.

Jake didn't need the money, the episode needed him to need it.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but let's look at the episode:

Jake sees that his father is stressed and wants to lift his spirit, fair enough.

Jake decides a better than average gift will be how he helps his father, fair enough.

Jake does not want to implicate any of the adults, because he does not want to risk it not being a surprise, fair enough.

Jake decides that the only gift good enough is a hundreds of years old artifact, wait what ?

I appreciate the writers wanting to explore the limits of Earth's future economy but "minor/young adult not having the assets to buy ancient artifact" is not a complaint that speaks about how bad the human system is or how good the ferengi system is.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think time has changed things more than anything since this is probably one of the absolute LEAST preachy Star Trek series.

[Link8909]

Jake still needed Nog's money.

Jake didn't need the money, the episode needed him to need it.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but let's look at the episode:

Jake sees that his father is stressed and wants to lift his spirit, fair enough.

Jake decides a better than average gift will be how he helps his father, fair enough.

Jake does not want to implicate any of the adults, because he does not want to risk it not being a surprise, fair enough.

Jake decides that the only gift good enough is a hundreds of years old artifact, wait what ?

I appreciate the writers wanting to explore the limits of Earth's future economy but "minor/young adult not having the assets to buy ancient artifact" is not a complaint that speaks about how bad the human system is or how good the ferengi system is.

Yeah. money is weird in Star Trek, my personal take on how it works based on the whole humanity don't use money but there are humans that still use it like in "The Trouble With Tribbles" is that while humanity doesn't have an economy so one can live on Earth or a Human colony with no income or worry about financial stability, there are however other planets in the Federation have their own economy, that would explain The Bank of Bolia, and since the Star Trek mentality is about celebrating diversity it makes sense to me that when joining the Federation there would be very little or no changes made to how that planet would operate, I doubt the Bajoran's would be eager to join if they had to stop worshiping The Prophets, and that there is a universal currency for any citizens of the Federation to use off world or by privateers like Cyrano Jones, Kasidy Yates and in Star Trek Picard Cristóbal Rios.

[Link8909]

I think time has changed things more than anything since this is probably one of the absolute LEAST preachy Star Trek series.

That's also something that I'm really happy that we haven't seen in this era of Trek, over preachiness on borderline smugness like in Seasons 1 and 2 of The Next Generation and Enterprise, I'm happy with the messages that Star Trek has always tried to teaches us, I however don't need the characters to act all superior and smug while doing it, it undermines the message.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think time has changed things more than anything since this is probably one of the absolute LEAST preachy Star Trek series.

That's also something that I'm really happy that we haven't seen in this era of Trek, over preachiness on borderline smugness like in Seasons 1 and 2 of The Next Generation and Enterprise, I'm happy with the messages that Star Trek has always tried to teaches us, I however don't need the characters to act all superior and smug while doing it, it undermines the message.

Yes, Patrick Stewart wanted to do a Mass Effect series basically. Maybe he heard about it from Marina.

Its pew-pew-pew on the Normandy Firefly.

[MixedDrops]

The lack of deep dives into the surface-level politics that Picard (and Discovery to some extent) is really my biggest issue with them (another reason I can't take the "it's too political" complaints seriously).

Let's just take one topic for example- the allegory for the refugee crisis in the form of the Romulan evacuation. We do get some interesting tidbits- the debate within the Federation, the Romulans being moved by Picard's promises, the bitterness they have for him afterwards- these are all interesting concepts to me. Imagine if they made a show that really explored these concepts. Think about all the different things they could show- flashbacks to the interplanetary debates in the Federation, for example, would give us the first time we're really seeing the internal workings of the Federation, how they might hash out disagreements (that don't involve some crazy coup or assassination like in The Undiscovered Country or DS9's Federation conspiracy plot). It would also allow them to explore the topic deeper and give a deeper sense of Picard's moral motivations.

Of course, this would lead to a lot of "boring" political debate scenes but...I imagine a lot of Trekkers don't mind that in the least at this point. I get that they also wanted some excitement and action in the mix, but I don't think that concept necessarily precludes in the inclusion of such things.

My understanding is that the prequel novel did go deeper into said topics (I have not read it myself), but that just leads me to wonder why they didn't include at least some of that within the show.

[Link8909]

I think time has changed things more than anything since this is probably one of the absolute LEAST preachy Star Trek series.

That's also something that I'm really happy that we haven't seen in this era of Trek, over preachiness on borderline smugness like in Seasons 1 and 2 of The Next Generation and Enterprise, I'm happy with the messages that Star Trek has always tried to teaches us, I however don't need the characters to act all superior and smug while doing it, it undermines the message.

Yes, Patrick Stewart wanted to do a Mass Effect series basically. Maybe he heard about it from Marina.

Its pew-pew-pew on the Normandy Firefly.

Honestly I don't see it myself, while there is action like any Star Trek series, there feels like there's a lot more scenes where the characters are interacting with each other, talking about their past, their feelings, talking about moral quandaries that sort of stuff, really good in my opinion as well, and as CaptainCalvinCat said in their post Star Trek Picard is an adventure show with parts told as a Detective Story, a Heist story, a base under siege story, and I think it is done very well, I'm fine with some action in Star Trek if it is incorporated into the story well or is interesting and inventive, so no I don't see Star Trek Picard as the "pew-pew" show that others claim it is.

Also the it's just Mass Effect but with Picard comparison, personally again I don't see it, I'll probably say more when Chuck gets to it, but suffice to say the similarity's are merely a coincidence, Mass Effect was about fighting these H.P. Lovecraft like monsters, where as Picard focused more on the rights and sentience on the Synthetics and Picard himself trying to stop them from turning into the same as those that shunned them.