Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[Karha of Honor]

Yeah, it's not that they were trying to avoid getting slaughtered by the Empire, it's that they were running away from mistakes they made.

Here's the thing, we now know that standard Jedi training is supposed to start when you're very young...so the question arises...what exactly was Obi-Wan waiting for with Luke? I mean it ultimately worked out but it was very touch and go there for a while. Then there's Yoda (Failed I have, into exile I must go) who was clearly ready to blow Luke off when he failed his initial test. Neither individual seemed all that eager to train their best hope until the situation became so dire that there hands were forced.

From my perspective Luke is completely right to question whether or not the Jedi should exist at all. The Order of the Clone Wars era had a number of issues that 'Chuck' has pointed out (A Jedi uses the force, for knowledge and defense, never for attack. That's what the flame throwers are for, Flame on!). With Luke, his own Nephew slipped into darkness, taking a handful of students with him from the very first 'class' Skywalker tried to train. That has GOT to make one wonder if the entire Order idea is a flawed idea, or perhaps that they themself have no right to be teaching anyone.

Seeing Luke find himself and his answer by films end was triumphant for me personally. However I hope that the next incarnation of the Jedi takes a new form. I don't think, after everything we've seen, that the Jeid should just go back to being like they were in the prequels or in the old EU games and lore. They need to push the order in a new direction based on learning from the mistakes of the past.

Star Wars is about conflict and beating baddies. The Jedi Order can easily do that while flawed and knowing tiself to be flawed.

[Ordo]

Star Wars is about conflict and beating baddies. The Jedi Order can easily do that while flawed and knowing tiself to be flawed.

So you don't expect them to ever try and grow beyond that, despite the fact that 'Empire Strikes Back' flipped that idea on it's head when we learned just who Darth Vader was....which ROTJ followed up on by having Luke save the day not by killing Vader, but by inspiring him to turn away from darkness?

[Karha of Honor]

Star Wars is about conflict and beating baddies. The Jedi Order can easily do that while flawed and knowing tiself to be flawed.

So you don't expect them to ever try and grow beyond that, despite the fact that 'Empire Strikes Back' flipped that idea on it's head when we learned just who Darth Vader was....which ROTJ followed up on by having Luke save the day not by killing Vader, but by inspiring him to turn away from darkness?

I am fine with them being organized and less organized depending on different factors during different eras but i am not interested in any sort of solution to the dark side or permanent utopia. It is called Star Wars.

[SabreMau]

Wow a lot of people on here hated this film.

I wouldn't call it hate so much as disappointment. At least for me. TFA happened and threw the galaxy into instant turmoil with all this no-more-Republic explodey thing, and I waited to see where they'd go from there, and where they went from there isn't where I wanted them to go, and how they went from there to where they are now has issues that nag at people upon further reflection.

Actually, I haven't even rewatched TFA since 2015, so I'm not even sure whether or not that holds up for me in retrospect.

[unknownsample]

Well where did you want them to go? I'm not saying the film is perfect, In fact when I first saw it I was unhappy with it and felt it was too long, but seeing it a second time, I enjoyed it, I'm not saying the film is perfect but I feel a lot of criticism has been OTT and at times downright nasty, the less said about the treatment of Kelly Marie Tran by some fans the better. It does interest me that this has gotten a lot of positive reviews from mainstream critics, compared to forums like this, does anyone have an answer to this and no Disney bribed the critics doesn't count.

[Madner Kami]

Well where did you want them to go? I'm not saying the film is perfect, In fact when I first saw it I was unhappy with it and felt it was too long, but seeing it a second time, I enjoyed it, I'm not saying the film is perfect but I feel a lot of criticism has been OTT and at times downright nasty, the less said about the treatment of Kelly Marie Tran by some fans the better. It does interest me that this has gotten a lot of positive reviews from mainstream critics, compared to forums like this, does anyone have an answer to this and no Disney bribed the critics doesn't count.

For a start, they could have aimed a lot lower and actually could have been more creative instead of copying old plots. A New Hope had the Deathstar blowing up one planet. TFA gets a Deathplanet and blows up an entire Star System (well, technically two, as it also destroys the sun it's orbiting in addition to it's actual target). In Empire Strikes back, the Empire has no trouble occupying Hoth and exorcising an entrenched rebel army there. In TLJ the not-Empire has no trouble occupying the entire galaxy and exorcises the entire Republic leaving only a handful of freedom fighters in their wake with no hope of survival.

What's Episode 9 going to bring? Deathplanet 2 is a given, I suppose, but how are they going to get their big set-piece battle of not-empire against not-anymore-republic? This is just getting worse from episode to episode. Star Wars is already oversaturated with superweapons of all levels of power and could benefit from a more character-focused storyline to boot.

[Rocketboy1313]

It does interest me that this has gotten a lot of positive reviews from mainstream critics, compared to forums like this, does anyone have an answer to this and no Disney bribed the critics doesn't count.

To quote an iconic video game reviewer, Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw.
"Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never, ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it."

Mainstream critics and 99% of the people seeing this movie don't give a flying fuck about Star Wars aside from, "I guess they are solidly entertaining movies. I don't really care about all the books and comics and stuff, but most of the movies are pretty good."

All of these EU fans, they are a dust mote. The only place they have any sort of voice or population of considerable size is on forums like these. "The Star ships wouldn't...." "But that character wouldn't..." "She shouldn't be able to..." "Why didn't they just..."

Blah. Blah. Blah. Whatever.

I don't understand the negativity, as far as I am concerned I understood everything that was going on in "Last Jedi", why every felt the way they did and why that pushed them to do the things they did, and I went in with the expectation of, "I wonder what they decided to do with the story" instead of "I already know what I want and will complain if I don't get it."

Not everyone went in with that mindset, but I am thinking there are too many. And at this point, whenever someone says, "I love Star Wars... The Last Jedi sucked/blew/betrayed the...blah. Blah. Blah" I just accept that there is some element that was fundamental to their enjoyment that was absent, and I couldn't tell the difference.

For instance, I didn't really like the prequels because I consider good acting to be a fundamental element of a good movie and ("Clone Wars" especially) the prequels didn't have enough to make them work.

[G-Man]

I have not seen the movie yet, but from I have heard about it, this seems to be what the problem with The Last Jedi is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6bAIu7mXjI
Basically, the movie has no direction. Nothing seems to lead to anything. Several plot threads were opened up in Episode VII, and in Episode VIII they were basically dropped or else cut short. The conflict is basically the same as in Episodes 4-6, with the First Order basically being the Empire for all intents and purposes, instead of a wannabe Empire.
Subverting expectations is fine, but "remember all of those interesting questions? Either no answers or the answers are not interesting," seems to be the sort of thing a kid does when he gets bored with a story and just wants to end it.

[MithrandirOlorin]

The Prequels have better acting then the OT.

[Fixer]

I have not seen the movie yet, but from I have heard about it, this seems to be what the problem with The Last Jedi is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6bAIu7mXjI
Basically, the movie has no direction. Nothing seems to lead to anything. Several plot threads were opened up in Episode VII, and in Episode VIII they were basically dropped or else cut short. The conflict is basically the same as in Episodes 4-6, with the First Order basically being the Empire for all intents and purposes, instead of a wannabe Empire.
Subverting expectations is fine, but "remember all of those interesting questions? Either no answers or the answers are not interesting," seems to be the sort of thing a kid does when he gets bored with a story and just wants to end it.

That's the sum of it. The Last Jedi is all buildup with no payoff and now someone's jammed the reset button so hard it's stuck on repeat.

The Force Awakens was a soft reboot that set back the universe from the New Republic to a band of Plucky Rebels vs The Empire. The Last Jedi is another reboot which set back the universe to a band of plucky Rebels Vs. The Empire. Only more so.

It's a story that's spinning its wheels and doesn't pay off audience investment. Subverting expectations is fine if there's some effort and heart put behind it. Pretending this is smart while also telling people not to think to much about it, doesn't work.

Outside of the problems with the arching narrative The Last Jedi happens to just be a bad movie in itself. With constant misfiring comedy undermining serious moments, a return to the physical comedy and cute fuzzy animals which were rightly panned in the Prequels/RotJ, terrible pacing, poor execution of side plots.

Could possibly compare to Star Trek: Into Darkness, a movie that was well received by general audiences as an enjoyable but dumb popcorn flick but was so full of stupid a lot less people cared to see the next in the series.