Dragon Age Origin-Heart of Stone

[TrueMetis]

Bhelen is a backstabber and schemer in a sea of backstabbers and schemers, while Harrowmont is a traditionalist with no experience in underhanded action. Also, Bhelen is the guy who will raise an army and free massive amounts of reserves and resources when he gets into power, while Harrowmont offers you the status quo of a dying nation on it's last breath.

Harrowmont has been part of the assembly for years, he may not use backstabbing and scheming but he's familiar with it. And while Bhelen is a backstabber and schemer he's not a very good one. Or the deadlock wouldn't have been needed to be broken by outsiders. Just look at his coup attempt if you support Harrowmont. The guy's an idiot.

Also, looking at it from a different perspective, at best, Harrowmont is going to send a force that is just large enough to fit the promise and leave a diminished force at the actual frontline of the war, when his fighting forces are weak to begin with. At worst, Bhelen is not going to send anyone, but will do his best to strengthen the forces fighting the Darkspawn in the heart of their territory.

I can expect Harrowmont to do everything in his power to live up to the terms of the treaty, which is fine because this is during a time when the Darkspawn are heading to the surface and not attacking the dwarves underground. Once the blight is over the darkspawn will stay underground again and the soldiers Harrowmont sent will return to fighting them there.

Bhelen on the other hand is precisely the type of idiot to use this temporary lull in darkspawn numbers underground to try and take some territory back, only to lose it and more when the darkspawn return with the end of the blight.

Both would be better off trying to get the surface kingdoms to send soldiers in to help them, but neither is going to do so, and the surface kingdoms aren't likely to agree anyway.

There's really only one logical choice, given the situation that the dwarven kingdom and Ferelden (and maybe the world at large) are in and this is undoubtably Bhelen.

Can't agree at all. TBH in the end the dwarves are pretty much fucked without a lot of help from the surface that neither is going to even try and get.

[Rodan56]

I look at the decision between both leaders as a sort of "You can't win for trying" situation. Unfortunately, both are imperfect choices. Bhelen is a loathsome, despicable person who is only progressive in many respects because it benefits him in the long run. BUT... he is the most willing to change things and make life better for dwarves who have had nothing for a long time. Harrowmont is a good, honest, decent man who will do his best to lead his people in a just and fair manner. BUT... he sees no reason to change things, make them better for those who don't have it as good and ultimately doesn't care about the suffering folks in his kingdom because he doesn't eally see it. Things have worked out so far for him, why change?

It's the choice between a good man who maintains the status quo... and a horrible shitheel who wants to reform society for the better, even if it is self-serving. It's how the quarians situation worked before ME3 flanderized their argument entirely. Han'Gerrel was a good man blinded by his hatred for the Geth. Zaal'Koris is a jerkass who realizes his people were wrong and things need to change. Now they unfortunately didn't continue that story and made Han an outright antagonist for no good reason other than make the Geth innocent of all wrong doing, but that's the situation the Dwarf quest in Dragon Age finds itself in. No one is perfect here, they all have problems, they aren't all completely right.

Really, the only GOOD ending, completely good, not horrible, hope spot, shred of potential future saving grace... is when you have a Noble Dwarf Warden who survives. He or she can take over the throne, and depending on how you played them, they can fix be the fair progressive ruler without the asshole complex.

Sad to say, that's the only way you can get away feeling somewhat better about things.

Me? I just never went for Bhelen because he's a dick. Call me petty.

[Enterprising]

I think the Grey Wardens agreeing to send forces to aid the Legion of the Dead in peacetimes would be a great way of thanking the dwarves for helping them solve this surfacer problem.

If you're a Dwarf you can make the request of Alistair/Anora that forces are sent to assist the Legion of the Dead. Not quite what you suggested I know, but at least the thought crossed the dev's minds.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Enterprising, that's actually nice to know. It's the right and reasonable thing to do, given that fighting darkspawn is literally the only job of Grey Wardens, and that Dwarves have to live with darkspawn all the time.

...dang. I might just start a game as a Dwarf to see that through. Even though I NEVER play non-spellcasters and dwarves can't be mages.

[CharlesPhipps]

The thing about Bhelen is he's there to underline the fact the game has a BIG theme of it which a lot of players completely ignore, which is GREY WARDENS ARE NOT HEROES. They have the reputation as heroes but they are actually murderous pragmatists and ruthless anti-heroes who are supposed to be willing to do anything to stop the Blight. To put Bhelen on the throne is to put a fratricidal murderer, schemer, and scumbag who will murder the entire families of his politcal enemies to get the job done (as you find out in Dragon Age 2). He's basically Stalin.

HOWEVER, he *WILL* do more to defeat the Darkspawn and achieve more to prop the Dwarven nation of Orzammar up for a few more centuries probably as a defense against the Darkspawn. Helping the Casteless is a side-issue because at the end of the day, all he does is make them able to be cannon fodder in their society.

But they will be treated slightly better because of this.

If you're trying to be the good guy, then this is a reminder Good does not mean SUCCESSUL.

However, I also think Bhelen vs. Harrowmount is a conflict which most Grey Wardens will not actually have that much info on and really you shouldn't care about this much. One is as good as the other for your primary duty--defeating the Blight.

[Rodan56]

To be fair to the Warden, yeah, they will do anything to stop the Blight. But given the alternative, there isn't much choice. You can either follow the Wardens and their beliefs and everything... or you can cross your fingers and hope it all turns out okay. The Wardens are really the best option to stop the literal end of the world.

Just because that's true doesn't mean they won't stoop to doing terrible things out of fear of failure. Inquisition proved that. But they're also capable of change and more proactive actions. Your Warden can end up wandering the lands to find a cure for the Wardens oncoming nightmares signifying their death. Thus removing the ever present risk that they are living on borrowed time and won't be around for very long. Of course there's also the fact that by the end of Inquisition you have basically ended another Blight before it even started and now there's only one Archdemon left to be uncovered. So, hey, there's a plot for your next game, BioWare!

[CharlesPhipps]

Alas, Corypheus' Archdemon is just a blighted High Dragon.

Which is disappointing.

[Madner Kami]

Alas, Corypheus' Archdemon is just a blighted High Dragon.

Which is disappointing.

It's established in DA:O, that all darkspawn-leading archdemons are blighted high dragons.

[CharlesPhipps]

It's established in DA:O, that all darkspawn-leading archdemons are blighted high dragons.

Yes and no.

They're Old Gods, which are eldrtich abominations/powerful spirits which take the form of High Dragons.

There's thousands of High Dragons.

There's 7 Archdemons.

[Madner Kami]

I did not say that all dragons are archdemons, I said all archdemons are dragons.