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Worffan101 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:05 pmYeah, but if I see somebody being racist, I'm going to call a spade a spade.
And that's fine. I'm all for letting people call each other anything they damn well please.
But the point that I think clearspira was trying to make is that a lot of people across Europe are beginning to feel that their governments no longer represent them or have their best interests at heart. They feel (justifiably or not) that their concerns are being ignored.
unknown is saying "Hey, we didn't ignore them. We called them racists."
Now, maybe that works differently in Europe, but in the US, when you call someone a racist, you're basically shutting the conversation down. And that's fine, if your goal is to exit the conversation. But if your goal is to convince the person you're talking with that you understand their concerns and want to be their ally, then it's a poor choice of tactic.
Ah. This may explain a few things about why far right protesters are suddenly being allowed to march.
The leak of an arrest warrant to far-right groups has heightened widespread suspicions of links between German police and xenophobic demonstrators.
...
The photo of the arrest warrant was quickly circulated online, in particular via a WhatsApp group of the far-right movement Pro Chemnitz, which originally called the demonstration on Sunday.
LittleRaven wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Ah. This may explain a few things about why far right protesters are suddenly being allowed to march.
The leak of an arrest warrant to far-right groups has heightened widespread suspicions of links between German police and xenophobic demonstrators.
...
The photo of the arrest warrant was quickly circulated online, in particular via a WhatsApp group of the far-right movement Pro Chemnitz, which originally called the demonstration on Sunday.
''Allowed'' to march. If we want to talk about concerns about how certain European governments are acting, permitting the right to march and protest to preferred citizens only is absolutely an example.
Well, yeah, I guess....but Germany has been restricting political speech for 50 years. Almost all European nations do. America is really fairly unique in its commitment to free speech.
unknownsample wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:02 pmIf they were branded racists then they weren't being ignored.
I don't know what country you hail from, but here the US, calling someone a racist is not a method for constructively opening a dialog with them, or making them feel like their concerns are being validated.
It's used as a method to shut down debate.
Where I come from, if somebody is being racist, it's within reason to call them a racist.
If somebody chooses to join racist hate groups just because they are annoyed that people keep calling them racists, well then they were probably never that anti-racist to begin with. You'll notice that, despite years and years of being called Femi-Nazis, feminist speakers don't actually turn to Nazism.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
LittleRaven wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Ah. This may explain a few things about why far right protesters are suddenly being allowed to march.
The leak of an arrest warrant to far-right groups has heightened widespread suspicions of links between German police and xenophobic demonstrators.
...
The photo of the arrest warrant was quickly circulated online, in particular via a WhatsApp group of the far-right movement Pro Chemnitz, which originally called the demonstration on Sunday.
''Allowed'' to march. If we want to talk about concerns about how certain European governments are acting, permitting the right to march and protest to preferred citizens only is absolutely an example.
You do realize this group was throwing rocks at people and using knives on them, right?
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:12 amWhere I come from, if somebody is being racist, it's within reason to call them a racist.
Knock yourself out. But don't be surprised when someone stops talking to you after you say that. And hey...that was probably your goal in the first place, so everyone's happy.
But you can't forget that pesky demos part of democracy. Even the people you don't like get to vote.
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:12 amWhere I come from, if somebody is being racist, it's within reason to call them a racist.
Knock yourself out. But don't be surprised when someone stops talking to you after you say that. And hey...that was probably your goal in the first place, so everyone's happy.
But you can't forget that pesky demos part of democracy. Even the people you don't like get to vote.
The goal wasn't to convince the racist person of anything.
It was to convince people on the fence that this behavior isn't normal or acceptable. It was to let shopkeepers and friends and neighbors who've been told by creeps with a MAGA hat that "now my guy is in office ya'll will be deported!" that, no, you are not alone, and I don't condone or excuse what is being done to you. It's to stop them from dragging the Overton Window into the pits of Tartarus
And the public discourse has come to a pretty sad state if you have to tiptoe around feelings to avoid suggesting that people saying and doing racist things are in any way racist.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:12 amWhere I come from, if somebody is being racist, it's within reason to call them a racist.
Knock yourself out. But don't be surprised when someone stops talking to you after you say that. And hey...that was probably your goal in the first place, so everyone's happy.
But you can't forget that pesky demos part of democracy. Even the people you don't like get to vote.
The goal wasn't to convince the racist person of anything.
It was to convince people on the fence that this behavior isn't normal or acceptable. It was to let shopkeepers and friends and neighbors who've been told by creeps with a MAGA hat that "now my guy is in office ya'll will be deported!" that, no, you are not alone, and I don't condone or excuse what is being done to you. It's to stop them from dragging the Overton Window into the pits of Tartarus
And the public discourse has come to a pretty sad state if you have to tiptoe around feelings to avoid suggesting that people saying and doing racist things are in any way racist.
And that's why I never stop arguing or replying to you despite you blocking me.
I need to convince people on the fence that this behavior isn't normal or sane. It's to let conservative protestors that were assaulted with a bike lock and then the attacker let go on probation ( http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/09/ex ... ation.html ) that they are in the right despite what the media says. It's to stop the Marxist from dragging the Overton Window into the Siberian wasteland.
And the public discourse has come to a pretty sad state if you assume your are on the "Right Side of History" like you winning and your ideas are divinely inspired or supported, and there for, assume anyone standing in the way of your divine ideas must be inherently evil and must be destroyed by any means necessary.
Worffan101 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:05 pmYeah, but if I see somebody being racist, I'm going to call a spade a spade.
And that's fine. I'm all for letting people call each other anything they damn well please.
But the point that I think clearspira was trying to make is that a lot of people across Europe are beginning to feel that their governments no longer represent them or have their best interests at heart. They feel (justifiably or not) that their concerns are being ignored.
unknown is saying "Hey, we didn't ignore them. We called them racists."
Now, maybe that works differently in Europe, but in the US, when you call someone a racist, you're basically shutting the conversation down. And that's fine, if your goal is to exit the conversation. But if your goal is to convince the person you're talking with that you understand their concerns and want to be their ally, then it's a poor choice of tactic.
Welcome to the USA for the last 20+ years. Both parties' lines have been mostly about rich people problems ever since the Republicans went full Objectivist and the Democrats decided that neoliberalism was the it thing. Both sides fucked the school system, Bush by throwing standardized testing at everything and Obama by pulling that absurd "Race to the Top" idea. Only real difference is that the Democrats are corrupt and willfully blind and the Republicans are even more corrupt and evil. They both ignore the little people and take their votes for granted.
And yeah. If you call someone a racist in a soundbite (as opposed to in a more natural conversation, something that doesn't really exist anymore thanks to the Internet stripping nuance out of fucking everything), you're telling them to shut up and telling all your supporters that that person shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't know how it works in Europe, but I'm pretty sure that telling neo-Nazis to shut up and get bent is the right thing to do, because they're fucking Nazis and literally the entire point of their ideology is murder and mindless hatred.
