Star Trek Discovery: Season Three

[Asvarduil]

However I'm glade that the Mirror Universe is still portrayed as a dark reflection of Humanity, and do make it clear that Georgiou isn't a good person, and in turn the story (so far) isn't going down the traditional redemption arc, it personally feels more like that the Federation ideals have "corrupted" her, and it's a interesting twist on the Mirror Universe stories of needing to blend in by having Georgiou who has always boasted about being Terran through and through, only for her to be constantly checking herself that "corruption" doesn't seep through.

I never really thought of Georgiou this way before...but this perspective really makes the episode less vacuous. Mirror Georgiou has been letting her guard down with the Prime universe's denizens, and now that she's been thrust back into the crucible where she was formed, some of the cracks in her guard are plain to see. Certainly, more than a few of the Mirror Universe folks were not fooled that she was as ruthless as she was "the day before".

With that said, interestingly, I think there's a few hints that her frolicking in the Prime universe actually hardened her in a few ways, and better-equipped her to be Space Hilter 40k. Beyond merely having future knowledge, I think her Section 31 experience makes her much more adept at manipulation and intelligence gathering than she was before. Taking Mirror Saru and making him an intelligence asset was a move that originally, Georgiou wouldn't have done, because she would've just tossed anyone in an agonizer booth until they told her precisely what she wants to hear.

Similarly, she's gained new weaknesses. Georgiou has really let her guard down with Mirror Burnham, which is a big mistake. Mirror Burnham isn't the stupid science-commando of the Prime universe, but a cold, calculating villainess who should never be taken lightly. Similarly, Captain Killy, while she's not quite as bright as her Prime counterpart, is someone who Georgiou should never, EVER turn her back on; Captain Killy isn't our adorkable goofball Tilly, but a hardened war-criminal who - if provoked - might just be capable of out-doing Mirror Georgiou in terms of crimes against sentient life.

I do have to agree with Mabus, though, that at least initially, the payoff being dangled in front of the audience is frankly very weak. We the audience thought that the Mirror Universe plots were jettisoned in Season 1. That the MU is brought back in Season 3, even for just a two-parter, is a distraction from the bigger and frankly better question of how precisely Discovery will figure out what caused the Burn, and reassemble the 32nd century Prime Federation. It's a distraction apropos of nothing except Michelle Yeoh possibly not getting enough screen time, or something else that's depressingly out-of-universe.

..."Depressingly out-of-universe" motivations are usually weak points in a story, but then too, Star Trek really isn't known for the strength of its writing.

One last thing: Having thought about what I saw in Part 1, I think what Part 2 will do is phaser up a plot hole from DISCO S1. In S1, the Terran Empire is a human fascist empire. In Star Trek: TOS, however, the Terran Empire is more equal-opportunity evil. I think that S3 of DISCO is going to do, is lead to that equal-opportunity evil Terran Empire, that will eventually go on to fall. I also think that Georgiou doing this, is what will cure her condition, and allow her to remain permanently in the Prime Universe; specifically, her existence depends on her fulfilling a weird and/or poorly-written casual loop.

[Makeshift Python]

That's the thing about Terrans, so many are cruel because they have to be in order to survive. There's those who take genuine glee in it like Lorca and Intendant Kira, and then there's those who have to act the part in order to remain at the top. I think this two-parter is shedding light on the fact that when it comes down to it Georgiou really was playing her part in the Mirror universe, but after spending time in Prime she sees she doesn't have to act cruel in order to survive, and it's now hard to get back into that. She'll often boast to the Disco crew about how she'll kill everyone without hesitation, but again it's all part of the act because she doesn't want to appear weak even to those in a universe that's alien to her. The only ones she showed actual cruelty to were those who posed a genuine threat like Control.

In a lot of ways this story feels like something she needed a lot earlier in the show in order for audiences like me to actually begin caring about her. The way she was integrated in the show during the first two seasons just felt off-putting, because I pretty much read her as someone that was genuinely evil, like WHY would any of the crew try associating with her and making her a part of the crew???

This makes me think of Dukat and all the opportunities that were presented to him to change his ways and how he kept pushing them aside because of his thirst for power and delusions of grandeur overtaking him. The one good thing he did was NOT kill his daughter when he pointed a disruptor at her, but then a season later he was ready to have her be incinerated by the destruction of Bajor's sun. I really admire the DS9 writers for never budging on the fact that Dukat was always a terrible person, and then reinforcing that with "Waltz".

[Link8909]

However I'm glade that the Mirror Universe is still portrayed as a dark reflection of Humanity, and do make it clear that Georgiou isn't a good person, and in turn the story (so far) isn't going down the traditional redemption arc, it personally feels more like that the Federation ideals have "corrupted" her, and it's a interesting twist on the Mirror Universe stories of needing to blend in by having Georgiou who has always boasted about being Terran through and through, only for her to be constantly checking herself that "corruption" doesn't seep through.

I never really thought of Georgiou this way before...but this perspective really makes the episode less vacuous. Mirror Georgiou has been letting her guard down with the Prime universe's denizens, and now that she's been thrust back into the crucible where she was formed, some of the cracks in her guard are plain to see. Certainly, more than a few of the Mirror Universe folks were not fooled that she was as ruthless as she was "the day before".

With that said, interestingly, I think there's a few hints that her frolicking in the Prime universe actually hardened her in a few ways, and better-equipped her to be Space Hilter 40k. Beyond merely having future knowledge, I think her Section 31 experience makes her much more adept at manipulation and intelligence gathering than she was before. Taking Mirror Saru and making him an intelligence asset was a move that originally, Georgiou wouldn't have done, because she would've just tossed anyone in an agonizer booth until they told her precisely what she wants to hear.

Similarly, she's gained new weaknesses. Georgiou has really let her guard down with Mirror Burnham, which is a big mistake. Mirror Burnham isn't the stupid science-commando of the Prime universe, but a cold, calculating villainess who should never be taken lightly. Similarly, Captain Killy, while she's not quite as bright as her Prime counterpart, is someone who Georgiou should never, EVER turn her back on; Captain Killy isn't our adorkable goofball Tilly, but a hardened war-criminal who - if provoked - might just be capable of out-doing Mirror Georgiou in terms of crimes against sentient life.

I pretty much agree here, and this is another case of something I like about season three overall, that the last two season (for good and ill) still matter and the events are still referred to and play major parts in season threes story, even if this was unintentional, your idea of Georgiou learning to be more subtle with intelligence gathering thanks to her time with Section 31 is fascinating.

[Link8909]

I do have to agree with Mabus, though, that at least initially, the payoff being dangled in front of the audience is frankly very weak. We the audience thought that the Mirror Universe plots were jettisoned in Season 1. That the MU is brought back in Season 3, even for just a two-parter, is a distraction from the bigger and frankly better question of how precisely Discovery will figure out what caused the Burn, and reassemble the 32nd century Prime Federation. It's a distraction apropos of nothing except Michelle Yeoh possibly not getting enough screen time, or something else that's depressingly out-of-universe.

..."Depressingly out-of-universe" motivations are usually weak points in a story, but then too, Star Trek really isn't known for the strength of its writing.

That's fair, while personally I'm fine with it and I do like Georgiou getting her own season arc and episodes that delve into her character, I do see how with the knowledge that she's getting her own series can seem like a distraction, I'm honestly envious of people that are oblivious to Star Trek news and are going to be surprised no matter what.

One last thing: Having thought about what I saw in Part 1, I think what Part 2 will do is phaser up a plot hole from DISCO S1. In S1, the Terran Empire is a human fascist empire. In Star Trek: TOS, however, the Terran Empire is more equal-opportunity evil. I think that S3 of DISCO is going to do, is lead to that equal-opportunity evil Terran Empire, that will eventually go on to fall. I also think that Georgiou doing this, is what will cure her condition, and allow her to remain permanently in the Prime Universe; specifically, her existence depends on her fulfilling a weird and/or poorly-written casual loop.

I see what you mean, however I personally don't think that the Terran Empires racism isn't a plot hole, but an inevitable attitude of the Mirror Universe, Terrans are meant to be the antithesis for the Federation and those ideals after all, and while there were cases like Mirror Spock and his all Vulcan personal guards on the Terran flagship, as Makeshift Python points out, there are different ways of being evil, some are cruel for it's own sake, and other are doing so for survival, and I personally see Mirror Kirk keeping Spock as an ally because he's more useful for Kirk's own gains, and has no interest in usurping Kirk's command.

But I would like to see more different kinds of evil as well, and I like that Star Trek Discovery has touched on that people in the Mirror Universe do what they do for survival, and I'd like to see different aspects of the Terran Empire explored, and some good stuff has been introduced in this episode like the christening ceremony of the ISS Charon, and the Mess Hall scene and seeing Terrans partying and playing (rather dangerous) games.

[Link8909]

That's the thing about Terrans, so many are cruel because they have to be in order to survive. There's those who take genuine glee in it like Lorca and Intendant Kira, and then there's those who have to act the part in order to remain at the top. I think this two-parter is shedding light on the fact that when it comes down to it Georgiou really was playing her part in the Mirror universe, but after spending time in Prime she sees she doesn't have to act cruel in order to survive, and it's now hard to get back into that. She'll often boast to the Disco crew about how she'll kill everyone without hesitation, but again it's all part of the act because she doesn't want to appear weak even to those in a universe that's alien to her. The only ones she showed actual cruelty to were those who posed a genuine threat like Control.

In a lot of ways this story feels like something she needed a lot earlier in the show in order for audiences like me to actually begin caring about her. The way she was integrated in the show during the first two seasons just felt off-putting, because I pretty much read her as someone that was genuinely evil, like WHY would any of the crew try associating with her and making her a part of the crew???

This makes me think of Dukat and all the opportunities that were presented to him to change his ways and how he kept pushing them aside because of his thirst for power and delusions of grandeur overtaking him. The one good thing he did was NOT kill his daughter when he pointed a disruptor at her, but then a season later he was ready to have her be incinerated by the destruction of Bajor's sun. I really admire the DS9 writers for never budging on the fact that Dukat was always a terrible person, and then reinforcing that with "Waltz".

While I'm glade that they are doing this now, I do agree that this is something that should have been explored in season two, throughout that season it was Georgiou being Georgiou, kicking ass and snarking all the way, entertaining in some ways sure, but not capitalising on the fact that she's as now stuck in an alien universe and lost everything.

[Zargon]

Georgiou is one of the few characters I like, but I find this whole story boring. So she gets 'something', that is just bland. So then there is a cure on planet x, ok, sure, why not.

The 'guy' is interesting for a couple seconds. TOS, TNG and DS9 had plenty of 'advanced alien power beings', but the idea was rare in Voy or ENT. Diso has ignored it too. So Doorman is interesting...maybe we will find out who and what he is....

Then we get a "dream something" in the past of the mirror universe? Boring. And it's missing a point: the past mirror universe dream something has no point. How will reliving a past dream cure anything?

And the story they picked is So Boring. We know Lorca and Burnum fail in their coup, so where is the conflict? All Georgiou needs to do is what she did before: she knows it works. So, again, boring.

They forgot to add some conflict, even better add some meta conflict beyond the story : basicaly a typical time travel story. That is that the time traveler(s) have to Put Right What Once Went Wrong.

Just watching everyone "act evil"(mostly poorly) is boring. Ok, they are evil...we get it. But as evil is normal in an evil universe....it's boring. Oh no, they killed someone....again...oh no.

And a two episodes? What happened to Burnums obsession to "find the cause of the burn"?

[Al-1701]

While probably later than optimal, it's good to get a Georgiou episode to explore her character and Terrans. I think what we're seeing is her living a bit of a nightmare. As much as she doesn't want to admit it, and as much she's insisted otherwise, the "Prime" universe has rubbed off on her. She has realized compassion and mercy have their uses and the "weak" can have their value. These fly in the face of the Empire and how she had lived her life. It's like something that's dark gray can look black against a white or light gray background. However, when put against black, you can tell it isn't.

Karl (or is it Carl) is interesting. My first thought is he could be a Q, or perhaps a Prophet considering his planet sits on the edge of the Gamma Quadrant. Regardless, I want to see more of him.

While I think Georgiou's plan is to just play through this as it happened, something is tugging at her suggesting things could have gone better. She has knowledge of the future which can be an asset but also a liability as the brain can't help but run through the scenarios.

I'm looking forward to the second part. I'm hoping we get the return of Lorca for how much he was mentioned.

[Link8909]

While probably later than optimal, it's good to get a Georgiou episode to explore her character and Terrans. I think what we're seeing is her living a bit of a nightmare. As much as she doesn't want to admit it, and as much she's insisted otherwise, the "Prime" universe has rubbed off on her. She has realized compassion and mercy have their uses and the "weak" can have their value. These fly in the face of the Empire and how she had lived her life. It's like something that's dark gray can look black against a white or light gray background. However, when put against black, you can tell it isn't.

Karl (or is it Carl) is interesting. My first thought is he could be a Q, or perhaps a Prophet considering his planet sits on the edge of the Gamma Quadrant. Regardless, I want to see more of him.

While I think Georgiou's plan is to just play through this as it happened, something is tugging at her suggesting things could have gone better. She has knowledge of the future which can be an asset but also a liability as the brain can't help but run through the scenarios.

I'm looking forward to the second part. I'm hoping we get the return of Lorca for how much he was mentioned.

I really Liked Lorca as the twist villain of season one and as a character overall, for pretty much the same reasons as Chuck gave in his Discovery reviews, so I'm up for seeing a return of Lorca myself, and on a note of returning characters we see Landry in this episode, see was the one who got sauce spilled over them by the Kelpien servant.

I also love Carl, and I love it when Star Trek does weird stuff like this, like when the Enterprise crew came across Abraham Lincoln in his space chair, or the time they met Satan and he was a chill dude, and of course whenever Q shows up, it really shows that the Star Trek universe can still surprise you, and that there are still mysteries to be discovered out there in the unknown.

[TGLS]

I really Liked Lorca as the twist villain of season one and as a character overall, for pretty much the same reasons as Chuck gave in his Discovery reviews, so I'm up for seeing a return of Lorca myself

I'm half expecting that it's going to be prime universe Lorca showing up, and he'll be thoroughly confused. I'm also expecting that this two parter will end up with Georgiou leaving permanently and in position for the section 31 series.

[Thebestoftherest]

I really Liked Lorca as the twist villain of season one and as a character overall, for pretty much the same reasons as Chuck gave in his Discovery reviews, so I'm up for seeing a return of Lorca myself

I'm half expecting that it's going to be prime universe Lorca showing up, and he'll be thoroughly confused. I'm also expecting that this two parter will end up with Georgiou leaving permanently and in position for the section 31 series.

I'll believe it when there a trailer.