Syrian Refugees in the USA

[Darth Wedgius]

Well, Darth, it's a bit of a relief for the true motives to be shown instead of all the waffling about "integration" and "terrorist risks". This is fear of Muslims, plain and simple.

We don't need a violent overthrow by Christians in this country imposing the Christian equivalent of Shariah law because they are already in office. Just ask Vice President Mike "hang the gays" Pence, or the Rapist In Chief.

Terry Pratchett said that Wisdom is one of the few objects that appears larger from a distance. I think the same thing applies to sexism, homophobia, and extremism.

Fuzzy, is everything you say going to be just accusing people of motives you pull from your ass?

How is going from "Muslims on average are more prone to extremism and less tolerant" to "you are motivated by fear of muslims" an ass pull?

Let's go down the list.

For my motivation, I spoke of inhabitants of the Middle East and, secondarily, Muslims, when I could get no better data. I did not mention Islam in general, nor Muslims from other parts of the world.

If you know that Mike pence has been hanging gays or has said that he wants to hang gays, I'd love to hear it.

If you know of anything that substantiates accusations of rape against Trump, likewise.

If you have evidence that the Trump administration has been trying to push Christianity on anyone, also,likewise. The closest I can think of are blue laws, which are local, and have been with us long before the Cheeto in Chief was born, much less took office.

Finding people you want to hate and then assigning them motives to justify it, if that is what you are doing, may make you feel better about yourself... But it isn't a very effective way to relate to the real world. If doing actual good in the world the rest of us live in is important to you, you might want to take a step back once in a while and question your assumptions.

[Darth Wedgius]

I think we're arguing in circles here. I'll say a greater preponderance of Middle Eastern Muslims will do X, Y, and Z. You'll note that there's X, Y, and Z here, and that not all Middle Eastern Muslims are the same.

There are probably Christians who want to wouldn't mind a theocracy, but what percentage? Now, how many Muslims want rule by Sharia law, proportionately? And just calling the members of grooming rings monsters just doesn't change anything. People are more likely to do something if it's more acceptable in the country they were raised in.

I'm not trying to argue past in circles, just point out that "grooming circles" are monstrous but the fact is the trafficking in enslaved women, especially very young women, is nothing which Europe or America has any moral high ground on. It's also a problem in Asia. It's one of those things people have thrown out in order to make Muslim society look worse that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

My main concern in this sort of situation boils down to the following:

1. The humanitarian crisis of these displaced people.
2. Avoiding stereotyping of the public via misinformation
3. Understanding who are the bad actors in which groups and why

Accepting different groups into your community results in changing of that community but at what point is it bad versus good? Basically, you have 1000 Muslims added to 10,000 person community and ask, "At what point is my society threatened by their INTELLECTUAL contribution to the local discourse?"

Which is a different thing than fearing terrorism. It's the idea that secular society can't stand up to people who argue against it (assuming they will versus freedom of expression).

And this is more of the "but we already have X, Y, and X here." I'm not saying that we don't have all these problems here; I'm saying the population in Syria likely has a higher concentration.

I'll admit that the welfare of potential Syrian refugees is not my primary concern; the welfare of the U.S. and its citizens is. Hence why I suggested we withdraw from involvement in Syria and let Assad, Russia, Iran vs ISIS fight it out. Anyone we found and encouraged to fight, if they really were fighting for a democracy there, we might still have a responsibility to, and we might offer them refugee status as a consolation prize.

As to what point accepting different points of view into the community is good is a good question, but one I don't think anyone has an answer to (but still a good question, because asking it makes us think). However, I'd say the U.S. operates on some fundamental assumptions -- separation of church and state being one. And it's to some degree an assumption, not something arrived at through pure reason, though it was informed by experience. I'd say that if someone doesn't accept that assumption, they should try their luck elsewhere.

Elsewhere probably wouldn't be in the west. I don't know of a western country that doesn't do that in some form in practice, except the U.K., but I'd say even that one only avoids separation of church and state by having the Queen be head of both. It's hard to imagine Elizabeth II ordering people burned at the stake. I'm almost certain it wouldn't be thought proper.

[CharlesPhipps]

Mind you, the separation of church and state is something that exists because of the PROTECTION of religious Americans rather than to stop them. People forget that the reason the separation of church and state exists is because the United States was created by varying groups of contradictory but equally driven religious people. Which, ironically, means that the Islamic people who come to the United States might be seeking the opportunity to practice their faith without fear of persecution for their beliefs as can happen in many other countries.

By which I mean that they'd be leaving countries where due to the fact they are not the right kind of Muslim is a reason to have them murdered.

I also am of the mind that there's a certain level of leaving the house when it's on fire is not really that good of a king. The Iraq War had numerous disasters attached to it due to mismanagement, corruption, cronyism, mass embezzlement, the dissolution of the Iraqi army (which Patton refused to do with the Nazis of all people because of fear of what having them released might do), and the question of whether we should even have been there. However, allowing ISIS and Assad to "fight it out" with Russia and the Rebels strikes me as a somewhat questionable strategy. Certainly ISIS has successfully mounted numerous terrorist attacks on us since then despite a minimalist presence and disrupted large portions of the Middle East and Africa.

Plus the whole genocide thing.

Someone else's problems today is tomorrow yours.

[Antiboyscout]

The argument there is kind of missing some context.

So I'll reframe it.

"Should we accept Jews from Nazi Germany? I mean, we're hostile to Germany so clearly these Jews are our enemy."

In this case being the refugees fleeing from Syria are the people who the people in Syria....ISIS and Assad are murdering by the thousands.

They are fleeing FROM Syria and I think we should accept them by the thousands.

Mind you, that's because I think it may be a good idea to have people who speak Arabic on our side in the future. There will be more conflict in that region and having friends and their children who can help us with the situation is a good idea.

Funny because, when I suggested we only bring in Christian and Kurdish refugees I was called a Racist Islamophob.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. They aren't fleeing because they have some sort of disagreement with the ruling government or Islam. They just don't want to be shot. They don't want to be American, and they will blame America and Americans for destroying there home. They hate the US. Keep them out.

[Antiboyscout]

People have to APPLY for refugee status. They WANT to come here, or somewhere else, or really just somewhere where they don't have to pick shrapnel out of their teeth.

The fact that people don't like our way of life but want to sneak in here tells you something or despite hating America so much, but they don't want to leave when their bluff is called.

You know I think the main thing they hate about our "way of life" is us bombing them.

What do you think is so fundamentally alien about foreigners that they will never be able to function in this country?

Sharia, Sharia courts, the creation of a parallel society. It's already happening in the US. I will not accentuate or accelerate the problem.

[Antiboyscout]

I'm not trying to argue past in circles, just point out that "grooming circles" are monstrous but the fact is the trafficking in enslaved women, especially very young women, is nothing which Europe or America has any moral high ground on. It's also a problem in Asia. It's one of those things people have thrown out in order to make Muslim society look worse that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

[CharlesPhipps]

I'm not trying to argue past in circles, just point out that "grooming circles" are monstrous but the fact is the trafficking in enslaved women, especially very young women, is nothing which Europe or America has any moral high ground on. It's also a problem in Asia. It's one of those things people have thrown out in order to make Muslim society look worse that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Is it supposed to show anything other than the horrible state of the world?

[CharlesPhipps]

The argument there is kind of missing some context.

So I'll reframe it.

"Should we accept Jews from Nazi Germany? I mean, we're hostile to Germany so clearly these Jews are our enemy."

In this case being the refugees fleeing from Syria are the people who the people in Syria....ISIS and Assad are murdering by the thousands.

They are fleeing FROM Syria and I think we should accept them by the thousands.

Mind you, that's because I think it may be a good idea to have people who speak Arabic on our side in the future. There will be more conflict in that region and having friends and their children who can help us with the situation is a good idea.

Funny because, when I suggested we only bring in Christian and Kurdish refugees I was called a Racist Islamophob.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. They aren't fleeing because they have some sort of disagreement with the ruling government or Islam. They just don't want to be shot. They don't want to be American, and they will blame America and Americans for destroying there home. They hate the US. Keep them out.

There's a bit of Gnome Underpants logic here.

1. They are being hunted down by ISIS who are committing genocide against them.
2. ???
3. They hate America.

They are fleeing to America so they can be Americans just like they're going to Germany because they want to be Germans.

Because Eastern Europe sucks and America has clean water.

Basically, the biggest disconnect is your confusion about Syria because unlike ISIS (which is Iraqi in origin), America has never been to war with Syria.

People have to APPLY for refugee status. They WANT to come here, or somewhere else, or really just somewhere where they don't have to pick shrapnel out of their teeth.

The fact that people don't like our way of life but want to sneak in here tells you something or despite hating America so much, but they don't want to leave when their bluff is called.

You know I think the main thing they hate about our "way of life" is us bombing them.

What do you think is so fundamentally alien about foreigners that they will never be able to function in this country?

Sharia, Sharia courts, the creation of a parallel society. It's already happening in the US. I will not accentuate or accelerate the problem.

https://www.quora.com/Is-shariah-law-practiced-in-Syria

There's a lot to unpack there but the short version being.
1. You realize Syria was a secular state, right?
2. The assumption the refugees want to upend all of society
3. The assumption the refugees can.
4. The assumption the refugees would want to do it for all of society than themselves
5. Sharia Law meaning anything other than religious based law which ranges from tyrannical murder of women to....divorce counselling and sunning.

Oh well, good talk.

[Antiboyscout]

The argument there is kind of missing some context.

So I'll reframe it.

"Should we accept Jews from Nazi Germany? I mean, we're hostile to Germany so clearly these Jews are our enemy."

In this case being the refugees fleeing from Syria are the people who the people in Syria....ISIS and Assad are murdering by the thousands.

They are fleeing FROM Syria and I think we should accept them by the thousands.

Mind you, that's because I think it may be a good idea to have people who speak Arabic on our side in the future. There will be more conflict in that region and having friends and their children who can help us with the situation is a good idea.

Funny because, when I suggested we only bring in Christian and Kurdish refugees I was called a Racist Islamophob.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. They aren't fleeing because they have some sort of disagreement with the ruling government or Islam. They just don't want to be shot. They don't want to be American, and they will blame America and Americans for destroying there home. They hate the US. Keep them out.

There's a bit of Gnome Underpants logic here.

1. They are being hunted down by ISIS who are committing genocide against them.
2. ???
3. They hate America.

They are fleeing to America so they can be Americans just like they're going to Germany because they want to be Germans.

Because Eastern Europe sucks and America has clean water.

Basically, the biggest disconnect is your confusion about Syria because unlike ISIS (which is Iraqi in origin), America has never been to war with Syria.

People have to APPLY for refugee status. They WANT to come here, or somewhere else, or really just somewhere where they don't have to pick shrapnel out of their teeth.

The fact that people don't like our way of life but want to sneak in here tells you something or despite hating America so much, but they don't want to leave when their bluff is called.

You know I think the main thing they hate about our "way of life" is us bombing them.

What do you think is so fundamentally alien about foreigners that they will never be able to function in this country?

Sharia, Sharia courts, the creation of a parallel society. It's already happening in the US. I will not accentuate or accelerate the problem.

https://www.quora.com/Is-shariah-law-practiced-in-Syria

There's a lot to unpack there but the short version being.
1. You realize Syria was a secular state, right?
2. The assumption the refugees want to upend all of society
3. The assumption the refugees can.
4. The assumption the refugees would want to do it for all of society than themselves
5. Sharia Law meaning anything other than religious based law which ranges from tyrannical murder of women to....divorce counselling and sunning.

Oh well, good talk.

The desire for regime change and the actual literal bombings are a de facto war.

https://nypost.com/2016/07/21/were-so-a ... -killings/

http://www.fairus.org/issue/societal-im ... ztlan-myth

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Well, Darth, it's a bit of a relief for the true motives to be shown instead of all the waffling about "integration" and "terrorist risks". This is fear of Muslims, plain and simple.

We don't need a violent overthrow by Christians in this country imposing the Christian equivalent of Shariah law because they are already in office. Just ask Vice President Mike "hang the gays" Pence, or the Rapist In Chief.

Terry Pratchett said that Wisdom is one of the few objects that appears larger from a distance. I think the same thing applies to sexism, homophobia, and extremism.

Fuzzy, is everything you say going to be just accusing people of motives you pull from your ass?

How is going from "Muslims on average are more prone to extremism and less tolerant" to "you are motivated by fear of muslims" an ass pull?

Let's go down the list.

For my motivation, I spoke of inhabitants of the Middle East and, secondarily, Muslims, when I could get no better data. I did not mention Islam in general, nor Muslims from other parts of the world.

If you know that Mike pence has been hanging gays or has said that he wants to hang gays, I'd love to hear it.

If you know of anything that substantiates accusations of rape against Trump, likewise.

If you have evidence that the Trump administration has been trying to push Christianity on anyone, also,likewise. The closest I can think of are blue laws, which are local, and have been with us long before the Cheeto in Chief was born, much less took office.

Finding people you want to hate and then assigning them motives to justify it, if that is what you are doing, may make you feel better about yourself... But it isn't a very effective way to relate to the real world. If doing actual good in the world the rest of us live in is important to you, you might want to take a step back once in a while and question your assumptions.

Okay then. Blanket fear of people from the Middle East. Better? It still seems to come from a very similar mindset in worldview.

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-sa ... ple-685759

Do efforts at legalizing discrimination against formerly protected classes in the name of Religious Freedom count? Or the Transgender military ban attempts? Or bans on immigrants/refugees from Muslim-dominated countries?