Olympic Champion women's runner loses appeal, ordered to artificially lower testosterone for competition

[Madner Kami]

Raphael? Is that you? Hythloday, right? Remember me? We used to share a room back in England in the old days...

Very subtle. I like it (o.-)b

[G-Man]

We discussed this to death on the other thread tbh.

This is actually a different case, because this is not someone who is trans but about someone who is intersex.

It's a difficult situation, because Semenya is not exactly a biological male trying to compete as a female; rather, Semenya has the outward appearance of a female but as I understand it has male gonads and lacks a lot of the female reproductive system.

Talking about intersexed people "identifying" as one sex or another makes a lot more sense to me than talking about it for people who are clearly biologically male or female, because if someone is in their very nature, incapable of producing gametes, then there is some level of arbitrariness to what sex you consider them to be.

The problem here is where you draw the line between males and females when there is actual physiological ambiguity. It's not quite the same thing as Michael Jordan or Shaq, or Michael Phelps having a mutation making them exceptional, because Semenya's mutation directly relates to a feature for which athletes are segregated, sex.

Pretty much the thing that I think people are worried about is, if some female sports become dominated by intersexed people, does that in effect drive women who are fully functional as females out, and does that erase the very purpose of having a separate female category?

In any case, none of it is a cause to be angry as Caster Semenya, she has just been dealt a hand in life that is hard to deal with.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

So let's say we proceed with the premise that her intersex trait make it unfair to compete with other women athletes. What then?

Does she have to compete against male athletes? Wouldn't that be unfair because of things like muscle growth, bone structure, and all those other points brought up about how born-male biology gives an edge?

Do we put her into an intersex league? Do we segregate that based on who has androgen unrecepitivity, who has ambiguous genitalia, who has unusual hormone levels, and so forth? Which of the many sex-signifying traits take precidence?

What do you people propose?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think politically it would be a strong gesture of support to the LGBT if they recognized her acceptance by gender and indeterminable non male sex genetic makeup.

[G-Man]

So let's say we proceed with the premise that her intersex trait make it unfair to compete with other women athletes. What then?

Does she have to compete against male athletes? Wouldn't that be unfair because of things like muscle growth, bone structure, and all those other points brought up about how born-male biology gives an edge?

Do we put her into an intersex league? Do we segregate that based on who has androgen unrecepitivity, who has ambiguous genitalia, who has unusual hormone levels, and so forth? Which of the many sex-signifying traits take precidence?

What do you people propose?

I don't know. I don't think there is an easy solution that is fair to everyone.

I'm not necessarily saying that she ought not be able to compete in the women's league, but I don't think that people should view her being allowed to compete as an obvious position that only a bigot could object to.

[Darth Wedgius]

So let's say we proceed with the premise that her intersex trait make it unfair to compete with other women athletes. What then?

Does she have to compete against male athletes? Wouldn't that be unfair because of things like muscle growth, bone structure, and all those other points brought up about how born-male biology gives an edge?

Do we put her into an intersex league? Do we segregate that based on who has androgen unrecepitivity, who has ambiguous genitalia, who has unusual hormone levels, and so forth? Which of the many sex-signifying traits take precidence?

What do you people propose?

Make every league co-ed. The problem of intersex and trans athletes go away, and you just accept men's advantages in most sports as just one of many natural factors affecting performance (in ultra-long-distance marathons women may have an advantage, though).

I think it's the only solution that doesn't draw arbitrary lines.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I mean, I'd be cool with that idea, Darth.