Babylon 5: A case of Captain Lockley

[Beastro]

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

Uhm... how do you get that conclusion from what I wrote? I wasn't indicating that at all. Just that in addition to entirely replacing the two actors that left the show, she also took Sheriden's role as active Captain on the ship. Yes obviously the focus stayed largely with Sheriden, but the role and what he was allowed to do and how he was treated was different.

Perhaps I'd misunderstood.

You did.

Sheridan at the end of B5 is literally a man without a country. He is full in with the ISA, arguably IS the ISA more than anyone else, and is looked on as a traitorous pariah by Earth for his actions. Despite saving their asses, Sheridan made Earth look bad and is a convenient scapegoat to a period Earth wants forgotten asap. They could forgive and forget the actions of Ivanova and the rest, but not him as the leader and instigator of B5s secession from EA. B5 is returned to Earth's control and the ISA is based there only long enough for them to set up shop on Minbar, then they want him gone.

Lockley is a return to the old order while Sheridan busys himself getting the hell out of Earth territory.

[Captain Crimson]

I think your declaration that she'd "replaced him" is off-base. Now granted, if this were happening today, I think you'd have a better basis to make the claim. But it's not like where you just gender-swap an older character who happened to be male, which SW is consistently guilty of with LF's SJW agenda. She doesn't replace him, Sheridan still holds a vital role to the end of the series, and if anything, he is promoted to ISA President. The focus is still on him, even with the final episode. They work together through the telepath crisis on the station. Replacing Ivanova has more of a ring of truth than replacing Sheridan. I think it's meant to parallel Mr. Washington, who was the general of the colonial army, and then became president himself.

Uhm... how do you get that conclusion from what I wrote? I wasn't indicating that at all. Just that in addition to entirely replacing the two actors that left the show, she also took Sheriden's role as active Captain on the ship. Yes obviously the focus stayed largely with Sheriden, but the role and what he was allowed to do and how he was treated was different.

Perhaps I'd misunderstood.

You did.

Sheridan at the end of B5 is literally a man without a country. He is full in with the ISA, arguably IS the ISA more than anyone else, and is looked on as a traitorous pariah by Earth for his actions. Despite saving their asses, Sheridan made Earth look bad and is a convenient scapegoat to a period Earth wants forgotten asap. They could forgive and forget the actions of Ivanova and the rest, but not him as the leader and instigator of B5s secession from EA. B5 is returned to Earth's control and the ISA is based there only long enough for them to set up shop on Minbar, then they want him gone.

Lockley is a return to the old order while Sheridan busys himself getting the hell out of Earth territory.

On those merits, I can understand what you are saying. Though I find Captain Lochley is a hugely divisive figure with fandom on the grounds that she was "following orders," is Captain Sheridan's ex-wife, and to some she seemed to replace Captain Sheridan and Commander Ivanova both. I find those sentiments are how her detractors react to the poor woman. "Following orders" invites Godwin's Law abuse, the second point is caused from shipping wars, and the third I tend to feel is due to the departure of Susan leaving a bad taste in fandom's mouth.

Though it is hardly a "return" to the old order in the sense that the EA enforced it upon the station. President Sheridan specifically asked for her, IIRC, because he wanted somebody on the other side as a peace gesture, but whom he would not have to watch his back around. And as his ex-wife, Captain Lochley is a logical choice.

[Marveryn]

I do think it hurts the character being the EX. it would be better if they left her a mystery somewhat to fill out later seasons.

[Beastro]

I do think it hurts the character being the EX. it would be better if they left her a mystery somewhat to fill out later seasons.

I think it's a limp-wristed attempt at some front-loaded attachment and legitimacy to the character. Trying to say that in some way she's more relatable than a simple new character. Similar to what happened to Ezri being Dax but not Dax in a poor switch out.

Actually, not that I think about it, both Lochley and Ezri kind of share the same burdens as characters.

[Captain Crimson]

I do think it hurts the character being the EX. it would be better if they left her a mystery somewhat to fill out later seasons.

I think it's a limp-wristed attempt at some front-loaded attachment and legitimacy to the character. Trying to say that in some way she's more relatable than a simple new character. Similar to what happened to Ezri being Dax but not Dax in a poor switch out.

Actually, not that I think about it, both Lochley and Ezri kind of share the same burdens as characters.

How does she possess illegitimacy? That is what you imply. It's perfectly consistent in-verse that President Sheridan wouldn't want someone to backstab him, but also who'd be a friendly front to the EA officers who didn't defy President Clark, as they are not evil and she proves it. It's a reconciliatory gesture and works fine to JMS' trapdoor style to writing the series. You could argue Captain Lochley is not relatable, that could be a valid argument, but then, you also should not deny she has legitimacy within the context of the larger writing style and a logical world-building perspective.

I suspect a lot of the reason people don't find her relatable is that she was just "following orders" and thanks to the Nazis which has a very controversial connotation to the point people in today's age with the benefit of hindsight are shoving unrealistic demands upon the populace back then that they had a duty to rise up and overthrow the government, many of which have me facepalm. It's similar to the argument for the second amendment gang that we NEED all our guns when the government comes for us. Personally, doing something bad to me while "following orders" is not the same as doing something evil while following orders, for lack of a better term. Even Captain Sheridan needed a few serious pushes before he reached open defiance. And as we see in the battle for Proxima III you could possess creative liberties even in the context of following orders.

[G-Man]

I do think it hurts the character being the EX. it would be better if they left her a mystery somewhat to fill out later seasons.

I think it's a limp-wristed attempt at some front-loaded attachment and legitimacy to the character. Trying to say that in some way she's more relatable than a simple new character. Similar to what happened to Ezri being Dax but not Dax in a poor switch out.

Actually, not that I think about it, both Lochley and Ezri kind of share the same burdens as characters.

How does she possess illegitimacy? That is what you imply. It's perfectly consistent in-verse that President Sheridan wouldn't want someone to backstab him, but also who'd be a friendly front to the EA officers who didn't defy President Clark, as they are not evil and she proves it. It's a reconciliatory gesture and works fine to JMS' trapdoor style to writing the series. You could argue Captain Lochley is not relatable, that could be a valid argument, but then, you also should not deny she has legitimacy within the context of the larger writing style and a logical world-building perspective.

I suspect a lot of the reason people don't find her relatable is that she was just "following orders" and thanks to the Nazis which has a very controversial connotation to the point people in today's age with the benefit of hindsight are shoving unrealistic demands upon the populace back then that they had a duty to rise up and overthrow the government, many of which have me facepalm. It's similar to the argument for the second amendment gang that we NEED all our guns when the government comes for us. Personally, doing something bad to me while "following orders" is not the same as doing something evil while following orders, for lack of a better term. Even Captain Sheridan needed a few serious pushes before he reached open defiance. And as we see in the battle for Proxima III you could possess creative liberties even in the context of following orders.

I think by "legitimacy" he just means trying to make her seem more part of things, rather than someone who came out of nowhere. That is, they tried to tie her backstory into that of the other characters.

[G-Man]

Something else that someone had pointed out was that JMS never really did much interesting with Lochley as a character. The one bit of interesting backstory was provided in the only S3-S5 episode that he didn't write (Day of the Dead, written by Neil Gaiman).

[Beastro]

How does she possess illegitimacy?

She doesn't possess illegitimacy, she just doesn't have the chance to cement herself and be something to the audience.

She's in the position Sheridan was back in season 2, only he had time to work with a full season near the beginning of the show and its build up, not at the end after everything major had been done.

The difference in wording we are using here I find interesting though. Illegitimacy isn't something I'd consider a thing that could be possessed. Rather its a state that comes from lacking something.

A pretender with a legitimate claim to a throne has legitimacy because of the quality they possess that ties them to that title. One who is illegitimate lacks that quality, so they aren't illegitimate because of what they are, but by what they lack.

you also should not deny she has legitimacy within the context of the larger writing style and a logical world-building perspective.

Making her his ex sounds like front-loading to me. Like having a long lost relative pop up and stay on a sitcom, as opposed to just any character joining the cast and working to develop them and fit them in.

I'm speaking here more about the structural nature of her character in relation to the show and what they were trying to do with her coming in rather than what her character was designed to be. This has nothing to do with her as the outsider who was on the other side during the civil war. That is a perfectly fine thing to do with a chaarcter, I just wish B5 had been built differently to allow her more room to develop or to avoid her needing to be a major character and just have a minor crew member do the arch.

[CrypticMirror]

How does she possess illegitimacy?

She doesn't possess illegitimacy, she just doesn't have the chance to cement herself and be something to the audience.

She's in the position Sheridan was back in season 2, only he had time to work with a full season near the beginning of the show and its build up, not at the end after everything major had been done.

I think the real problem with Lochley, apart from the Nineties hairstyle that was overdone even at the time, is that in the Season Five storylines there really isn't any need for a station commander in them at all. It is all the political stuff now, not space stuff. When the politics and the space stuff was intertwined in early seasons then there was a need for a station commander. But it is all politics by this point, and internal politics of the new Interstellar Alliance at that, not that it was bad, those stories were still engaging; but there wasn't any role for a station commander or Earth Ambassador. Earth was a diminished political force on the sidelines, irrelevant to the stories at hand, and just didn't figure.

I think if Ivanova had stayed as new station commander then even she would have struggled a little to find a place, and would have depended heavily on character familiarity for her storylines. Without either familiarity or plot relevance, Lochley was more like poor whassisname the fighter jock from S2. She was in the credits, but barely in the show. I get they felt they needed to bring in a new female character to prevent the show sliding towards being a sausagefest, but I think that creating a truly new role would have been better than trying to slide her into a role that didn't really exist in the story anymore would have been the better choice. Bring in a new station commander, by all means, but have them just as worldbuilding background and an occasional guest star, acknowledging the changes in the setting, and have a new female main cast member be someone else entirely.

[Marveryn]

i think that the main issue I think with the character. She was place in a role that was no longer the focus of the show and when they made her the ex you lack the possibility that she could be more. If you left it blank you could had later claim she was a sleeper agent for the psi core leading to that war that was a back story development where the show was leading into. Or you could have her such a hard case that she often clash with Sheridan. Instead of Sheridan always seeming to want to welcome her to the fold, you could have him have a bit of mistrust. Which is why I said making her as an Ex you remove the mystery that she may not be a good guy. Babylon main selling point is the cast member grow and change during season. But Lockley was already a finish character that was slotted into the roll. She had no place to grow. she had no backstory where she was regretting her action for earth government. She had no mystery that an audience could cling to in hope of someday finding her true alliance. That sort of stuff