Truly bizarre NRA ad...

[Draco Dracul]

I never studied it in detail, but they got over Bush vs Gore.

One, not entirely and the recent election has reopened a lot of those wounds. Two, Bush vs Gore didn't involve interference from a hostile foreign power.

What was undermined? The right had less disadvantage?

Well for one there were multiple attempts to alter the voter rolls. Additionally, it's not always going to be favoring the right, it's going to be favoring whoever said foreign powers feel is either going to weaken the US through incompetence, is easy to manupulate, or who is actively on their payroll.

[Robovski]

One, not entirely and the recent election has reopened a lot of those wounds. Two, Bush vs Gore didn't involve interference from a hostile foreign power.

I like how the revelation of collusion to manipulate the Democrat primaries between Clinton and the DNC is the Russian's fault. They didn't make the mess, they just showed it to us.

[Admiral X]

Kind of like how some people want to lynch Snowden as a traitor and ignore that he revealed that the NSA is just straight up ignoring that whole 4th Amendment thing, so, you know, are actually traitors to the American people.

[Karha of Honor]

I never studied it in detail, but they got over Bush vs Gore.

One, not entirely and the recent election has reopened a lot of those wounds. Two, Bush vs Gore didn't involve interference from a hostile foreign power.

What was undermined? The right had less disadvantage?

Well for one there were multiple attempts to alter the voter rolls. Additionally, it's not always going to be favoring the right, it's going to be favoring whoever said foreign powers feel is either going to weaken the US through incompetence, is easy to manupulate, or who is actively on their payroll.

I say the power just as scary, just because it cam from within the US.

Source? They still have to pitch to American voters, good luck with that. It's not like the USA doing that Bulgaria. Other countries will have limited influence because the US is a world power and if it was not it's still a giant diverse and wealthy country.

[The Romulan Republic]

One, not entirely and the recent election has reopened a lot of those wounds. Two, Bush vs Gore didn't involve interference from a hostile foreign power.

I like how the revelation of collusion to manipulate the Democrat primaries between Clinton and the DNC is the Russian's fault. They didn't make the mess, they just showed it to us.

Except that's not all that Russia did, and you know it. Propaganda posted by paid trolls and bots? Hacking voter information in multiple states? Possibly even collusion with the Trump campaign, though that remains unproven for now.

Moreover, Russia did not act out of some noble desire to get the truth out, to inform the voters. They selectively released information, targeting one campaign, for partisan political purposes. And a half-truth can be just as effective a form of dishonesty as an outright lie.

Had, say, the New York Times reported on it, I'd likely have had little objection. But Russia did so to sabotage another country's elections to advance its own (bigoted, authoritarian, imperialist) agenda.

And you should be ashamed for lying (at least by omission) to defend this. Left or Right, the integrity of our elections should be sacrosanct. Unfortunately, however, the modern Right, for the most part, has no real principles, besides hate of the Other and the desire to win at any cost.

Just remember that history tends not to look kindly on Quislings.

[Robovski]

Just remember that history tends not to look kindly on Quislings.

More of the kind of threats and language we have come to expect from the regressive left. Liberalism means nothing to you, nor principles (eg not fixing a primary in an election). You would be a joke if it weren't for the penchant for violence your side keeps demonstrating (I have but to look to Hamburg for today's example to see the burning cars and shops).

And hey, the DNC clearly shows they learned their lesson of how they lost the last election with new material that completely misses the point of how to reach an electorate that isn't already in your camp. http://www.newsweek.com/democrats-sugge ... uys-632420 and if I'm choosing between unethical assclowns and a populist cheeto I'll vote for the cheeto because at least it's not going to burn my business down because someone in town was going to say something you didn't agree with.

Oh but Hillary was thrown under the bus by a negativity campaign by the Russians! Yeah, that's where all that negativity came from. Not because many Americans aren't tired of Clintons, or perceived her as a money grubbing powermonger angry grandma who would you wouldn't leave your baby with for fear she'd sell it's organs if she got a decent offer, or expected her to be charged for her federal law infractions on secrecy, or because of her performance as Secretary of State, or because she embodied the establishment to a weary and stretched workforce that sees an out of touch Washington that does not care what they need as they struggle to pay the rent despite both working. But hey, she has a vagina, so clearly the best choice of all the primary candidates, especially in the minds of all her best buds at the DNC which we have proof of their collusion.

But you keep on going lalala I can't hear you, the Democrats are right on track for losing the midterm, and then you'll already be behind for 2020. Trump for a second term? Only if he wants to - but what is more important is that the Dems won't have control over the House or Senate either and that is how you truly fail in the years to come. And hey, maybe the American populace will finally move from a two party system and into something more representative. A liberal can dream, can't I? Of political parties that represent voter's interests and not just money? Oh I know, now I'm in fantasyland, but I can still dream.

[The Romulan Republic]

I did not threaten you, unless you consider the question of how future generations may regard your actions, and the actions of those you defend, a threat.

I cannot prevent you from throwing fuel on the fire by lying that the Left is collectively and soley responsible for political violence. Nor can I prevent you from posting other vapid and inflammatory Right-wing talking points. Nor would I if I could, since I respect the right to freedom of expression.

But you will not libel me to bolster your arguments.

I insist that you retract, and apologize for, your false accusation immediately.

[Steve]

I suppose he thought you were threatening he'd end up like Vidkun Quisling, who was executed for his crimes collaborating with Nazi Germany's occupation of Norway. Ergo "death threat".

And so the cycle continues.

I'm gonna say this now. This is not a productive conversation. It is an argument about who threw the first fistful of sand in the sandbox. And I'm tired of it. Both sides have idiots, both sides have absolute authoritarian assholes, both sides have frightened people who can be manipulated into supporting the assholes because they're frightened of the Other.

I personally think that there is indeed quite a lot for people on the right's hate-list to be scared of. The alt-right has arisen like a cockroach from the shadows, being the festering boils on the asscheek of humanity that they are, and they are a violent bunch. Our Vice President has links to camps where gay kids are sent to be psychologically (and even physically) tormented until they turn "straight". Some of the rhetoric of Trump's supporters is terrifying (as seen in the video in the OP). At the same time, I feel that promoting or ignoring violence against them won't accomplish jackshit, and will only legitimize the shitnuggets.

And I understand being afraid of the behavior at Berkeley and the militant left, having to worry that some radical antifa will come out of his intellectual circle-jerk on tumblr and break your car (or your bones) in a frothing rage because you're not sufficiently progressive. Hell, they'd probably break my head for saying some of the things I do, and I voted for Clinton in last year's shit sandwich Aliens vs. Predator "Whoever wins, we lose" election.

At the same time, coming in here bleating about how it's all the "regressive left"'s fault for the political environment in this country, ignoring years of vicious political behavior by the right, ignoring the rhetoric about "Second Amendment solutions", ignoring the rise of the alt-right even before Trump won the election, is just as bad and isn't going to get me a bit of sympathy.

And in summation: if this cycle of "nah ah, you started it first!" continues, I will lock the thread and any further threads on American political topics until people calm down. And I'll consult with Tex and Chuck if people keep this going, because this is going beyond civil political discourse.

[The Romulan Republic]

Noted.

I will simply say, for the record, that while I stand by my prior statements regarding how the current current cycle began, I do not deny that their is a growing problem with violent radicals on the Left, nor do I condone it (you might recall that I was the one who posted the thread calling out the Bernie or Bust/Jill Stein wing nut who shot a Republican Congressman about a month back).

What I am, above all else, above liberal and conservative, progressive or traditionalist, is a democrat in the truest sense of the word- that is, I believe in democratic government, and all the prerequisites for a functional democratic government: legal equality, freedom of belief and expression, an educated populace, the rule of law and due process, and the integrity of the vote. Political violence, or any violence for any reason other than defensive necessity, has no place in that, be it perpetrated by a man in a white hood or wearing a Swastika, or by a socialist or civil rights activist.

So we can argue all we want about which economic philosophy is better, or how much importance we should attach to "traditional values", or which country we should/shouldn't go to war with, or how loose our gun laws should be. Those are all issues where there is legitimate ground for civil disagreement.

As long as we all respect the rules of a democratic system.

[Karha of Honor]

I suppose he thought you were threatening he'd end up like Vidkun Quisling, who was executed for his crimes collaborating with Nazi Germany's occupation of Norway. Ergo "death threat".

And so the cycle continues.

I'm gonna say this now. This is not a productive conversation. It is an argument about who threw the first fistful of sand in the sandbox. And I'm tired of it. Both sides have idiots, both sides have absolute authoritarian assholes, both sides have frightened people who can be manipulated into supporting the assholes because they're frightened of the Other.

I personally think that there is indeed quite a lot for people on the right's hate-list to be scared of. The alt-right has arisen like a cockroach from the shadows, being the festering boils on the asscheek of humanity that they are, and they are a violent bunch. Our Vice President has links to camps where gay kids are sent to be psychologically (and even physically) tormented until they turn "straight". Some of the rhetoric of Trump's supporters is terrifying (as seen in the video in the OP). At the same time, I feel that promoting or ignoring violence against them won't accomplish jackshit, and will only legitimize the shitnuggets.

And I understand being afraid of the behavior at Berkeley and the militant left, having to worry that some radical antifa will come out of his intellectual circle-jerk on tumblr and break your car (or your bones) in a frothing rage because you're not sufficiently progressive. Hell, they'd probably break my head for saying some of the things I do, and I voted for Clinton in last year's shit sandwich Aliens vs. Predator "Whoever wins, we lose" election.

At the same time, coming in here bleating about how it's all the "regressive left"'s fault for the political environment in this country, ignoring years of vicious political behavior by the right, ignoring the rhetoric about "Second Amendment solutions", ignoring the rise of the alt-right even before Trump won the election, is just as bad and isn't going to get me a bit of sympathy.

And in summation: if this cycle of "nah ah, you started it first!" continues, I will lock the thread and any further threads on American political topics until people calm down. And I'll consult with Tex and Chuck if people keep this going, because this is going beyond civil political discourse.

What is the alt right?