Lower Decks season 5

[Nealithi]

The fact the civilian ship came INTO a battle, cloaked and than decloaked... honestly, who knows what it was doing there. Theirs a fan theory that the Federation only did this to throw Worf under the bus so the Klingons could come back as an ally. I don't agree, but like... Sisko comes off super weird in his rant to Worf at the end, and I LOVE Sisko, he's awesome and one of the best written characters in Trek. But I refuse to believe HE'D ever say that, after shit he did at THAT point. Picard, and even Kirk, I can buy. But Sisko? No way.

I kinda think Sisko's talking to Worf was less a don't shoot civilians. And more, don't be so predictable that you can be setup so easily. The klingons had deliberately made an attack pattern then sent in the 'innocent' ship knowing Worf would spot the pattern and shoot.

And their scam was so patently transparent that it ought to have been laughed out of court in a couple minutes. The only way it could have been more obvious is if the Klingon lawyer walked in carrying a neon sign with FALSE FLAG OPERATION emblazoned on it. I mean sensor data alone would've made it clear that it wasn't a civilian vessel.

I mean okay I get what the episode was trying to do and it did have good moments, but I don't think it set up the conflict of the story terribly well.

Wait. He wasn't carrying the sign?
In a more serious vein. Jag on Trek seems to have one setting. Punishment. Not guilt nor innocence, we intend someone to be punished and be harsh about it. Kinda a constant like Admiral pips come with insanity kool aid.
The klingons setup a false flag and everyone could see it. But the letter of the LAW said the jag had to put the guilty on trial. And as usual start at guilt. Heck as fast as the trials happen I think the jag corps is bored.

The previous examples. Kirk? First off the Prime Directive was a rule on a piece of paper that could be bypassed for the greater good. Not dogma at the time. Then, what is his better move? A foreign power was playing god. Kirk was not happy about what he had to do. But he armed the other side in an attempt to rebalance the scales after cultural contamination was thrown out the window.

Sisko on the other hand, everyone was against his orders. But it could be argued he also just rebalanced the scales someone else upset. The maquis made a cardassian world uninhabitable to cardassians, but humans would be fine. So Sisko did the reverse. Which also had the benefit of moving the borders a little.

Sisko playing guerrilla on DS9? The Star Fleet modified station while some members of the Bajoran command wanted them to stay? And in the end it showed the whole thing had been engineered to get the Federation out so Cardassia could retake Bajor and the wormhole? They took one look at that and said, "Medal or court martial. Eh they balance out."

[Nobody700]

The fact the civilian ship came INTO a battle, cloaked and than decloaked... honestly, who knows what it was doing there. Theirs a fan theory that the Federation only did this to throw Worf under the bus so the Klingons could come back as an ally. I don't agree, but like... Sisko comes off super weird in his rant to Worf at the end, and I LOVE Sisko, he's awesome and one of the best written characters in Trek. But I refuse to believe HE'D ever say that, after shit he did at THAT point. Picard, and even Kirk, I can buy. But Sisko? No way.

I kinda think Sisko's talking to Worf was less a don't shoot civilians. And more, don't be so predictable that you can be setup so easily. The klingons had deliberately made an attack pattern then sent in the 'innocent' ship knowing Worf would spot the pattern and shoot.

And their scam was so patently transparent that it ought to have been laughed out of court in a couple minutes. The only way it could have been more obvious is if the Klingon lawyer walked in carrying a neon sign with FALSE FLAG OPERATION emblazoned on it. I mean sensor data alone would've made it clear that it wasn't a civilian vessel.

I mean okay I get what the episode was trying to do and it did have good moments, but I don't think it set up the conflict of the story terribly well.

Wait. He wasn't carrying the sign?
In a more serious vein. Jag on Trek seems to have one setting. Punishment. Not guilt nor innocence, we intend someone to be punished and be harsh about it. Kinda a constant like Admiral pips come with insanity kool aid.
The klingons setup a false flag and everyone could see it. But the letter of the LAW said the jag had to put the guilty on trial. And as usual start at guilt. Heck as fast as the trials happen I think the jag corps is bored.

The previous examples. Kirk? First off the Prime Directive was a rule on a piece of paper that could be bypassed for the greater good. Not dogma at the time. Then, what is his better move? A foreign power was playing god. Kirk was not happy about what he had to do. But he armed the other side in an attempt to rebalance the scales after cultural contamination was thrown out the window.

Sisko on the other hand, everyone was against his orders. But it could be argued he also just rebalanced the scales someone else upset. The maquis made a cardassian world uninhabitable to cardassians, but humans would be fine. So Sisko did the reverse. Which also had the benefit of moving the borders a little.

Sisko playing guerrilla on DS9? The Star Fleet modified station while some members of the Bajoran command wanted them to stay? And in the end it showed the whole thing had been engineered to get the Federation out so Cardassia could retake Bajor and the wormhole? They took one look at that and said, "Medal or court martial. Eh they balance out."

I should clarify I am zero moral judging what they did, it's just these are MASSIVE violations.

Kirk gave a pre warp society guns when they didn't have the tech level for it. That's like, one of the most blatant breakings of the prime directive PERIOD. Like it's not 'Make a nazi 4th reich' but its WAY more than got mistaken as one of their gods. I ain't saying Kirk was right or wrong for the move, just the fact he's still a Captain after the move is insane.
The only reason I think Sisko wasn't arrested for the move by his crew is cause the poison takes a LONG time fo effect to happen. It's still a fucked move, and while I get where Sisko came from, as an admiral I think I'd want this man arrested or at least fired for gassing a planet, even if it was harmless.
The station fighting, I will stand on while the most moral move, is the MOST blatant rule breaking. He was ordered to leave, and to NOT stay... and he ignored the command. Again, I'm ZERO ethical blaming, just this was an outright order and he refused it. But that's more my beef with the Bajor trilogy actually being really shit and not good.

The problem is, theirs easily a dozen other moves I can assign they shoulda gotten punished for, but it's Worf who gets the court martial, or Paris the solitary confiment when Worf did NOTHING wrong in my eyes, and while Tom did do something command wise wrong and I woulda punished him as captain... even I balked at how badly he got treated. When Janeway does this shit ALL the time, it's laughable she dresses down Paris as hard as she does when this is the same woman who joined like three planet rebellions for NO reason beyond it fit her whim. Punishment in Trek is like the ones on the Justice planet. Arbitery, over the top, and shifts fast.

[Madner Kami]

Sounds like tuesday for a US-court vOv

[Nobody700]

Sounds like tuesday for a US-court vOv

Any examples?

[clearspira]

3. What do you have to do to be demoted as an Admiral in Starfleet? Visit the Genesis planet? The guy needed to be cashiered.

Visit the planet from The Cage. The only death penalty on the books after all. You can eat a man's heart and only get a jail sentence but don't you dare visit the planet of the big headed aliens.

[clearspira]

We see in the Shades of Green b plot regarding the Targalans the process of transferring over to a post scarcity moneyless economy for the first time but I did not buy how it is shown here (and in fairness I do not think they were trying to).

The Orville of all shows actually makes a very good point about this. The replicator would have to come AFTER the abolition of capitalism and materialism and not before, as a capitalistic society with a replicator would just make the rich richer. It is a sweat shop pumping out cheap goods without the people in it. Can you really see Bezos or Musk giving you the ability to pump out products for free?

The Targalan ruling class seems far too happy giving up all of their treasures to be plausible imo.

[hammerofglass]

We see in the Shades of Green b plot regarding the Targalans the process of transferring over to a post scarcity moneyless economy for the first time but I did not buy how it is shown here (and in fairness I do not think they were trying to).

The Orville of all shows actually makes a very good point about this. The replicator would have to come AFTER the abolition of capitalism and materialism and not before, as a capitalistic society with a replicator would just make the rich richer. It is a sweat shop pumping out cheap goods without the people in it. Can you really see Bezos or Musk giving you the ability to pump out products for free?

The Targalan ruling class seems far too happy giving up all of their treasures to be plausible imo.

Which to be fair seems to have been meant as a joke more than anything, with the Orions happily taking it off their hands in the punchline.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I really hope that it's enough to penetrate even the poor media literacy of Certain Fans that Federation Earth is post-capitalist and that Star Trek says capitalism is bad.

[Nobody700]

I really hope that it's enough to penetrate even the poor media literacy of Certain Fans that Federation Earth is post-capitalist and that Star Trek says capitalism is bad.

Hmm... Nah, Star Trek Picard season 2 was bad cause it was W O K E and had Guinan say Earth was too racist for her so she was gonna leave. That's why the season was bad. Politics. In my non political star trek.

[CharlesPhipps]

Eh, the Replicator is accompanying their joining of the Federation.

People miss that.

That is the lack of need of capitalism.