B5: Confessions and Lamentations

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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SuccubusYuri
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by SuccubusYuri »

ScreamingDoom wrote:
The point is that there simply isn't a known mechanism where morality would affect disease infection rates, while the other things you cite as examples are not nearly as manifest.
I think you're analyzing the trees a little hard there. I believe the general point was that, we always put our pearl clutching in the blender with science.

Or as Chuck once said, "Science is a hot chick on a packed Japanese train just trying not to get groped by ignorance, fear, and politics".

And while the episode isn't a 1-for-1 AIDS allegory, that was DEFINITELY an epidemic that was ignored for years because it was an "immoral disease".
Fixer wrote:If the Voyager crew had devoted time to helping, likely they would resolve nothing and probably end up as a collection of body parts in jars.
Yeah definitely gotta side with Janeway on that one. Phlox just didn't want to help cuz god told him not to. On Voyager it would have been "Nah we can save the leopards, people. Neelix got us some leopard-proof face masks! Zero-chance the leopard will eat our faces!"
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Admiral X
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by Admiral X »

I have no doubt that Berman was the one behind the change - he was always a stickler for requiring adherence to the Roddenberry rules, whether he believed in them, or because he thought that was part of TNG's success.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by CharlesPhipps »

My headcanon for Dear Doctor is they were mind-controlled by invisible Organians. :)
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by Darth Wedgius »

CharlesPhipps wrote:My headcanon for Dear Doctor is they were mind-controlled by invisible Organians. :)
I'm not sure why Dear Doctor ruffles more feathers than TNG's Homeward, where the entire crew is willing to see all life end on a planet because of a technowhahoosis atmospheric inversion thingy.
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Madner Kami
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by Madner Kami »

Darth Wedgius wrote:
CharlesPhipps wrote:My headcanon for Dear Doctor is they were mind-controlled by invisible Organians. :)
I'm not sure why Dear Doctor ruffles more feathers than TNG's Homeward, where the entire crew is willing to see all life end on a planet because of a technowhahoosis atmospheric inversion thingy.
For one, Homeward offers a counterpoint to the dogmatic approach to the Prime Directive, in the character of Nikolai Rhozenko and the countering is very vocal. Homeward also shows and discusses the ramifications of such a rather invasive help, although the episode with the Proto-Vulcans does that part much better and almost cranks it up to eleven, but that is a different theme.

Also, Homeward ends up with having at least saved a few houndred Boraalans and implying that to be a good thing, while Dear Doctor ends up with Genocide by Idleness and patting itself on the back for doing the job well.
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by Nevix »

I think the reason why Doctor Lazren didn't wear a hazmat suit is that he wanted to get infected, in the hopes that studying him would help Dr. Franklin get the answers needed, but was also falling to cynicism and shame by the end. Hence his Kobayashi Maru speech.


This episode is one that stuck with me to this day, because of that massive tragedy of an entire species dying due to dogmatism and shortsightedness, and because Delenn's reaction to watching an entire population die in front of her affecting her so much.

That the Markab Plague was brought back as a minor but significant plot point in later episodes was a great addition too, as it showed a level of continuity not always seen in Sci Fi shows.


It's not the most vital episode to the series, but it's definitely an important one.
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by G-Man »

ScreamingDoom wrote:Contrast this with a disease. A disease isn't going to care about the "morality" of a host it infects; at most, there might be a correlation between certain behaviors and infection rates.
To be fair, that can be a pretty strong correlation between morality and disease. I don't think anyone who today argues that STDs are a judgment for immorality are arguing that the diseases mystically appear in "immoral" people. They are not unaware of how the disease spreads.
SuccubusYuri wrote:
ScreamingDoom wrote:
The point is that there simply isn't a known mechanism where morality would affect disease infection rates, while the other things you cite as examples are not nearly as manifest.
I think you're analyzing the trees a little hard there. I believe the general point was that, we always put our pearl clutching in the blender with science.
I think the general counter-point was that the situation was so obvious that the stupidity was unbelievable. Health care, gun control, global warming are complex social/climactic issues with several variables, and various policies have various pluses and minuses (I'm leaving out the "restricting women's bodies" because the central disagreements about abortion/birth control are about their morality rather than about the empirical facts surrounding them). That you can see a disease spreading and just ignore that it is happening is at a completely other level. It would be like saying that no one ever gets shot or hurricanes do not exist. The issues RobbyB1982 brings up are more like arguing over whether or not a quarantine policy would be helpful or just cause panic and stop people from seeking treatment.
SuccubusYuri wrote:And while the episode isn't a 1-for-1 AIDS allegory, that was DEFINITELY an epidemic that was ignored for years because it was an "immoral disease".
Well, it was not talked about in polite company, but research was done to figure out how to treat it, steps were taken to contain its spread, and to the extent that people were ignorant about it, it was often more in the direction of overestimating the risks of contagion.

The Markab essentially act like their society has not yet come up with the germ theory of disease.
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Darth Wedgius wrote:
CharlesPhipps wrote:My headcanon for Dear Doctor is they were mind-controlled by invisible Organians. :)
I'm not sure why Dear Doctor ruffles more feathers than TNG's Homeward, where the entire crew is willing to see all life end on a planet because of a technowhahoosis atmospheric inversion thingy.
Does it? I was under the impression that the consensus was that both of them were BS.
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by CareerKnight »

ScreamingDoom wrote: A study was done in the 1990s to find the average wait time for surgeries that were elective, but life-threatening (things like bypass surgeries, cancer removal and the like) through English-speaking countries. Only the United States had a sub-double-digit waiting time; Australia had the second best if I recall correctly at 13 months. While socialized medicine may be cheaper for individuals, the actual quality and speed of medical care may not be as good or better and evidence suggests it is significantly worse in most cases. It's not a simple matter of "government pays for everything == everything is better!"
I am not familar with the study but I wouldn't be surprised if the only effect the socialized healthcare actually has on the wait time is that more people are requesting the procedures because they can afford them whereas in America there are a lot of people who need such procedures but can't afford them (or worse don't even know they need such procedures cause they can't even afford to see the specialists that would make such a diagnosis). Ultimately the advantage of universal healthcare is it gives the lowest costs due to the nature of insurance (the bigger the pool the lower the risks and thus lower costs) and treating problems earlier before they become more serious (without insurance a lot of people are forced or choose to ignore health problems until it lands them in the emergency room which costs a lot more).
I don't know what you're referring to as far as "restricting women's bodies". Is this an abortion thing? Because abortion is and has been legal in the United States for a long time.
Legal yes, restricted hell no. While federal law prevents states from banning abortions, many have found a work around by passing numerous restrictions and requirements on abortion clinics to the point that barely any can operate in their state due to a ruling that they could regulate them as long as the don't place undue burden on the clinics which they chose to interpret fairly loosely. Examples include requiring hallways to be wide enough for two gurneys to pass each other (bear in mind that the vast majority of abortions require no surgery) and requiring doctors to have admitting privileges at local hospitals (which are often difficulty to get due to the hospitals political stance or financial situation, is entirely unnecessary because of safe abortion procedures are and hospitals don't just turn away patients, and bs because similar requirements are not place on other facilities despite having greater risks).
The US Government stance on global warming has been pretty clearly in the "support" side for decades. It's only recently that convention has been challenged. This is a good thing, as it's revealing a lot of the problems in the methodologies and studies (one of my favourites is using evidence from ground sensors in urbanized areas to discount evidence from plant studies and satellite data). Surely you can't be against that, yes? Surely being accurate is more important than being ideologically pure, yes? This is exact thing the episode is talking about, in fact.
More accurately the stance has been to acknowledge it but barely do anything about it. The convention being challenged would be a good thing if most if not all such challenges were based on misinformation or plain bs (I am not familiar with the study you mentioned and could find it so please provide a link). The fact is the climate is getting warmer and climatologist using a variety of data sources from numerous disciplines have near universally agreed that man made greenhouse gases are the cause.
Gun control laws don't actually fix the problem. First of, there is very little correlation between availability of guns and violence. Secondly, gun control laws have not proven to actually restrict the use of firearms in criminal acts -- criminals, unsurprisingly, are perfectly capable of breaking gun laws to get their hands on firearms if they want them. This also means that the common claim that "an armed society is a polite society" is also wrong, by the way.

The fact is, if one has a violent society, then people are going to use whatever means they have to cause violence. If guns aren't available, then they'll use knives or bombs or cars or whatever else they can.

One can make the claim that gun controls are meant to restrict random violent acts -- like the one guy shooting up Vegas -- since guns are tools that are specifically designed to cause injury and death and if someone just snaps then their ability to kill people is going to be a lot more limited (suddenly crazy people aren't likely to have the patience to try and plan the way to kill the most people rather than just go do it as soon as they can), but it is hardly as black-and-white as you seem to imply.
I strongly disagree. First, for your correlation, the US has the most guns per person out of any country and is the only nation where mass shootings have become such a problem. Second, that criminals will ignore a law is not used as an argument against any other law because its silly and in the US the government is forbidden from funding research examining the connection between gun control and gun violence. Third, its a lot easier to deal with someone with a knife than a gun. Fourth when people talk about improved gun control it is primarily to address the problem of mental ill individuals getting a hold of firearms and killing people. Doing nothing about this problem is morally irreprehensible. Even the people in congress who argue it is more of a mental health issue (which I agree is a component and steps should be taken to improve the situation) still do nothing to attempt to fix the problem.
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SuccubusYuri
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Re: B5: Confessions and Lamentations

Post by SuccubusYuri »

G-Man wrote:I'm leaving out the "restricting women's bodies" because the central disagreements about abortion/birth control are about their morality rather than about the empirical facts surrounding them
As someone who has met men who think menstruation is voluntary, think women can't get pregnant if they don't orgasm, or alternatively, for fun, laughed off my explanation once about how evolution decided it was better to hedge its bets throughout the year rather than giving humans a breeding season because that would have meant humans have been around for more than 6,000 years...I respectfully submit you are "leaving out" the most relevant example to a medical discussion.
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