Wisconsin Law Allows Toddlers to Hunt with Guns

[Madner Kami]

I mean, it's not like a lot of people all over the country are exposed to them at an early age and actually do grow up to be responsible gun owners or anything.

Given the statistics, exactly this is not the case and this is also the reason why a different lot of people are argueing for tighter gun control.

[LittleRaven]

Given the statistics, exactly this is not the case and this is also the reason why a different lot of people are argueing for tighter gun control.

Are you sure the statistics are on your side?

30% of Americans say they personally own at least one gun. That's ~110 million people. In 2013, there were ~33,636 deaths due to gun violence, although 21,175 of those were suicides. (people legitimately argue about whether or not those should be counted in these sorts of debates) But we'll include them for the sake of argument. We're going to count each individual death as a separate example of an irresponsible gun owner, even though Omar Mateen managed to rack up 50 that year all by his lonesome, and he was hardly the only one that managed to kill multiple people.

So, a little math. 33,636/110,000,000. Comes out to 0.00030578, or .03%, unless I missed a digit somewhere.

Frankly, a .03% failure rate among humans seems pretty darn good in my opinion. We're a terribly flawed species. And that's including suicides! That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, of course, but its never as simple as saying 'there should be a law!' Effective legislation is hard. Effective enforcement is hard. All of it costs time and resources, and requires actually learning about the subject at hand. Connecticut, where Adam Lanza went on his rampage, already has relatively strict gun control laws - it's hardly a red state, after all. But Nancy Lanza had no trouble legally buying her weapons, because she had no criminal record and no history of mental problems. She registered all of them, complying with every regulation. How can we tighten that system in such a way as to prevent another Sandy Hook while staying within the bounds of Heller?

[Admiral X]

Given the statistics, exactly this is not the case and this is also the reason why a different lot of people are argueing for tighter gun control.

Exactly the opposite is true.

[Madner Kami]

Are you sure the statistics are on your side?

Yes, very. It's hard to say what the exact average number is, due to the surge in mass shootings in 2016 and 2017 (where you got more than 1 per month), but let's say for the last ten years, you had an average of 8.8 mass shootings per year, based on the list of mass shootings on Wikipedia. You know how many mass shootings we had in Germany, where there are about one third as many registered guns per 100 citizens as in the US in the same amount of time? 4. Not four on average per month or per year. Just four in ten years and one of which was exclusively between different branches of the italian mafia.
And I suppose we do not even need to start to talk about deaths and injuries due to user-errors or people having access to guns that just should not, but do nonetheless because the owner is a complete twat and leaves it lying around for his 5 year old to play with.

Now, I perfectly see a reason to legally own a gun under certain circumstances and those people shouldn't have to hop through silly hoops to get access to guns. People living in isolated, remote or lowly populated areas, for example. People who need guns due to their occupation. Hell, even hunting rifles and sports rifles should be easily accessible, given the potential owner is credibly educated in gun safety and not a nutjob. But something has to change in american law regarding guns, because they're on the level of countries like Somalia, when it comes to matters of guns and that's just not a state one should be wanting to be in.

[Admiral X]

Even with mass shootings, violent crime (as in all violent crime) has been steadily declining since 1978.

[LittleRaven]

You know how many mass shootings we had in Germany, where there are about one third as many registered guns per 100 citizens as in the US in the same amount of time? 4. Not four on average per month or per year. Just four in ten years and one of which was exclusively between different branches of the italian mafia.

I'm confused. Why are we comparing the US to Germany? Do you guys have an equivalent of the Second Amendment, or a similar amount of firearms in circulation, or any other characteristics that make this an apt comparison? I am NOT an expert on the German legal system...hell I'm not even a layman, but I'm under the impression that Germany has VERY strict laws when it comes to gun ownership. Like, MUCH more strict than anything that could reasonably be done in the United States without running afoul of Heller.

Remember, politics is the art of the possible. And the possible is quite limited on this issue in the US until we either amend or re-interpret the Second Amendment, neither of which appear likely to happen in the near future.

But something has to change in american law regarding guns, because they're on the level of countries like Somalia, when it comes to matters of guns and that's just not a state one should be wanting to be in.

Well, then you'll be happy to hear that things are changing in American law with regards to guns...particularly at the state level. Of course, they're mostly changing in the direction of making guns EVEN MORE accessible, but that's because people keep voting for lawmakers who promise to do just that.

[Madner Kami]

I dunno if you intentionally don't want to understand or just missing the point for whatever reason, but I am tired of keeping this up, as it's pointless either way. I don't want to explain it anymore, enjoy shooting each other to death once a month and reading the newest news about who shot his brother, sister or himself by accident every other day.

[LittleRaven]

Madner, I'm not trying to be dismissive. I apologize if I have offended you. I appreciate the argument you're making, and I agree with you that Germany has far fewer shootings. But from what I know, the German government has power in this arena that the American government simply does not. We are, for better or worse, tied to our Constitution, and our Supreme Court's interpretation of it. We have the power to change that Constitution, but only if 3/4s of the state legislatures agree to the change, and gun control does not poll well in most states.

Gun violence in the United States is quite high in comparison to all other first world nations. But Americans, at least the ones who vote, seem to like it that way. We consistently vote down gun control measures and candidates that promise them...at least outside of our major cities. If we could snap our fingers and turn into Germany, would we? Maybe. But we can't...at best, we could try to implement policies that would move us towards the German model...although I certainly wouldn't market it that way. God, the attack ads practically write themselves. (for clarity, that observation reflects badly on the US, NOT Germany.)

I confess that while I'm a Democrat, I'm generally against gun control measures, but not because I particularly want to see more guns around. I'm mostly against them because as far as I can tell they're political suicide. Nothing drives people into Republican arms like gun control. We have SOOO many problems in this country that a healthy left could make meaningful progress on....income inequality, health care, privacy...and yet the temptation to go tilting at the gun control windmill always seems overwhelming, even though it never ends up with anything good happening.

But that's politics for you.

[ORCACommander]

It does not help matters that the media like portray some incident 1 to 2 thousand miles away as happening in your back yard

[TGLS]

America, the land where the means to kill dozens of people is legal, but the means to get high carries multi-year sentences...