Star Trek (Dis): Context Is for Kings

[CharlesPhipps]

Like Linkara, I'm a self-proclaimed Social Justice Warrior. It's one of those words which started as a pejorative but got "claimed" by some fans. After I got called it a bunch of times for writing gay, leftist, and transexual characters in my books--I finally just said, "Well, if that's what makes me one. Go ahead."

Speaking of which, I have no problem with Star Trek: Discovery's advance of gay, black, and female protagonists. It was embarrassing in Deep Space Nine that they were willing to do sexy bisexual/homosexual female characters but couldn't actually show actual gay characters. It was kind of embarrassing that it took until Star Trek: Beyond we had a main character.

(I maintain in my head at least that Primeverse Kira is bisexual because her Mirrorverse version is and they're genetically identical)
Michael Burnham being a black female lead isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination and it's kind of ridiculous that people would think Star Trek fans would have a problem with it (sadly, not at all unbelievable since I've met plenty of racist and sexist fans of Gene Roddenberry's vision). I admit, though, it is kind of annoying Captain Lorca the straight white male takes over after Georgiou.

No, my big issues are:

1. Everyone is unlikable and dlsikes everyone else.
2. It's a very cynical series
3. There's too much focus on Michael versus everyone else.
4. The Klingon characters are unlikable cariactures
5. The Spore Drive is Threshold levels of bizarre pseudo-science.

No. 5# needs to be explained as I accept a lot of impossible things from Star Trek because it's wonderfully visionary that way and we learn new things about it every day. We have God (Q), faster than light travel. multiple universes, and so on. Some of these I believe in real life. However, its a bit much that there's a network of spores in another dimension that links across space without water or ground yet still lives (space is an ocean apparently now includes environments) and this somehow makes teleportation possible.

It's doubly weird because I wouldn't have a problem if it was just "ancient network of space tunnels" like Voyager's Vaadwar had or something similarly weird. Just not...again, things which cannot exist in vacuum.

[Meushell]

The funny thing I find funny about Finn in the last two Star Wars films was that George Lucas did have a good explanation why there was a black man in a stormtrooper uniform in the extended universe. But Disney has been the dumbasses they have killed the extended universe along with the story that clearly explained why the stormtroopers where now Random people and now clones anymore. Even that there were still some clones left. When you kill your only real explanation, you kinda failed.

Star Wars: Rebels makes it clear that recruits are used instead of clones since the Empire started. They also state that clones were used until they were deemed “too old” and forced out of service. Finn himself says he was taken as a young child. New canon books also expand on this.

And all you have to do is play the original BattleFront 2, Not that EA BattleFront 2 port that came out a few months ago. But in the game's Single player in the original BattleFront 2 you play a Clone trooper and in one of the stories, you learn that the people on Kamino the cloning planet decided to make there own Version of clones. Clones that did not have order 66 and were under there complete control, and not the Empire. They made these clone at the same time there were making the clones for the Empire. They seemed to not trust Palpatine, so there side free clones where made as a precaution, and they failed, the newly develop StormTroopers beat the Clone Troopers and Palpatine order to let volunteers be Storm Troopers and that the DNA be slightly altered to make different troopers of various looks and personalities.

That works too, but my point was, they still say/show that clones aren’t used, both in the movie itself, and in extended materials.

[CharlesPhipps]

Notable fact the first non-clone recruit we meet in Rebels is a black male himself.

Mind you, the people who complained about a black stormtrooper seemed to be huge Empire fans.

For whatever that's worth.

[Sir Will]

Speaking of which, I have no problem with Star Trek: Discovery's advance of gay, black, and female protagonists. It was embarrassing in Deep Space Nine that they were willing to do sexy bisexual/homosexual female characters but couldn't actually show actual gay characters. It was kind of embarrassing that it took until Star Trek: Beyond we had a main character.

(I maintain in my head at least that Primeverse Kira is bisexual because her Mirrorverse version is and they're genetically identical)
Michael Burnham being a black female lead isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination and it's kind of ridiculous that people would think Star Trek fans would have a problem with it (sadly, not at all unbelievable since I've met plenty of racist and sexist fans of Gene Roddenberry's vision). I admit, though, it is kind of annoying Captain Lorca the straight white male takes over after Georgiou.

My only issue is how smug they are with it sometimes. Like 'look at us, we're progressive now, we have gay characters'. Like, I'm glad they're doing it, they just make too big of a deal about it earlier on.

As for the Kira thing, well there is more to it than just genetics. I mean, identical twins have different personalities and, while I think they're more likely to both be gay if one is, it's far from a sure thing.

[Winter]

Honestly, I think it was a mistake to focus on that for the intro. As a self-proclaimed "SJW," I didn't see a lot of people taking issue with Discovery's focus on a black woman as the lead aside from the racists and the sexists (the kind who think Star Trek is just pzew pzew Kirk beds alien women and not anything of substance) and they were easy enough to drown out considering Star Trek is a show ALL ABOUT equality, social justice, and bringing people of different backgrounds together.

No, the complaints people have had across the board are the perfectly legitimate ones - the continuity issues both in tech and look, the unnecessary amounts of "edginess" (swearing, nudity, pop culture references that Star Trek has tended to shy away from because we're several hundred years removed from it), or indeed - how everyone kinda starts as a jackass.

Now I'm still waaaay behind on Discovery (still haven't watched past the time loop episode, which I loved) but I've been enjoying the character development we've had so far and have been willing to MOSTLY overlook the continuity stuff, but I'd be lying if I said some of that didn't bug me.

Same here, most of the issues I see fans taking up is just how dark and edgy the show is trying to be. My biggest issue with the show has been more of just how fast everything is. It feels like there are no quite moments for the viewer to just catch their breath. For me, the best new Trek is Star Trek: Beyond which felt a lot more like classic trek while still having the more fun actiony elements of the newer series. One issue many fans take with Beyond is how Kirk didn't have a character arc or that the arc that was set up was dropped but I think most fans misinterpret Kirk's arc for Beyond.

For me, I felt like Kirk was seeing more about how much his crew meant to him, how hard he took their deaths and how being a captain was just as much about protecting those under his command as it was exploring the final frontier. And the other characters had some great scenes and development as well, I love the bits between Spock and Bones, (who never interact that much in any of the films IMHO) and I love Jaylah and her mentor student relationship with Scotty. And how even minor characters like I swear I thought her name was Ensign Sue getting just enough screen time for us to know them. The characters are flawed and the situation is grim but it still posses the more optimistic feel that Trek is so well known for.

But with Discovery, its first season at least, feels like its indulging in the darker elements which makes it hard to sit through after a while along with all the issues you listed.

Just to go over to my favorite series I didn't much care for The Last Jedi, and I actually like the Prequels. I do think there are a number of issues but the thing that bugs me the most as a fan of the Prequels and the Original Trilogy is how everything the heroes won at the end of Return of the Jedi was for nothing or how the characters did things that, for me, completely ignored their development in the original Trilogy. Han leaving Leia and Luke contemplating killing his own nephew just didn't bit the growth they underwent in original trilogy. Not to mention I feel that Kylo Ren embodies the worst elements of Anakin from Attack of the Clones and, for me, I feel that Rey isn't a very compelling character, especially when compared to Mara Jade.

And... I've completely gone off series, sorry about. So back to Dis. There are a lot of elements I like and in some ways I think its the 3d best of the first seasons of Trek but lets me honest, that's not really that hard. The first season of TNG was terrible, same with Voyager & Enterprise and DS9's first season was a mixed bag. I think the best first season of Trek is TOS but it has been a while sense I saw TOS so a re-watch is in order.

I do hope that Dis goes on to have better seasons and feels more like Star Trek.

[SFDebris]

Well, like I said, I wouldn't feel the need to say it if history hadn't taught me it needed saying. If even a fellow ChannelAwesome contributor will say in public that sexism is why guys don't like Voyager and then single me out specifically, then the memo clearly isn't getting out there.

[Winter]

Well, like I said, I wouldn't feel the need to say it if history hadn't taught me it needed saying. If even a fellow ChannelAwesome contributor will say in public that sexism is why guys don't like Voyager and then single me out specifically, then the memo clearly isn't getting out there.

I know what you mean, I'm someone who's left my gender up for everyone to figure out which has resulted in me being called a sexist pig and a Feminazi, in the same comment section no less. I've actually wrote up my thoughts on why I found Rey, Kylo Ren and Holdo to be weak characters when compared to Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn and Winter Celchu. I haven't gotten any comments on that yet but if I ever do I'm hoping that I get commenters who are as nice as everyone in this forum is. I actually made a constant effort to avoid saying things like, Mary Sue, SJW, and other such things that had nothing to do with talking about the characters and yet is seems to be one of the most dominating subjects whenever it comes up.

Almost every time I try to find a review that goes into the flaws or strengths of TLJ someone goes, "This is why women should never be allowed to be main characters." or "Men should never be allowed to talk about anything." No one cares that Wonder Woman is a woman her movie is still awesome, no one cares if it only has a male cast The Shawshank Redemption is still beautiful and no one cares if it stars a transgender woman in a lead role Sense8 is still well made. So why is it things like Star Wars and Star Trek can't go five minutes without someone complaining about these things making actual criticism harder to spot.

And on the flip side it makes genuine praise harder to spot when your talking about a well written character who just happens to be Japanese girl who has fantastic chemistry with the female lead and whenever you bring up just how awesome she is you get three comments going on about how you are a SJW who is forcing an agenda now their throats when all I've talked about is how awesome it was when said character pulled off a Kirk by having a game of chicken with a Demigod and it was the Demigod who flinched (Samantha Nishimura from Tomb Raider BTW, great character).

[MithrandirOlorin]

I have my issues with TLJ, but it's a better film then Wonder Woman by far.

[Winter]

I have my issues with TLJ, but it's a better film then Wonder Woman by far.

IMO I think Wonder Woman is one of the best Superhero films ever made. I like Diana, love the action and I love Love LOVE Steve and Diana's relationship. The climax is a bit weak but I've seen worse. But that's just me.

[CharlesPhipps]

My only issue is how smug they are with it sometimes. Like 'look at us, we're progressive now, we have gay characters'. Like, I'm glad they're doing it, they just make too big of a deal about it earlier on.

Eh, true, though having a beloved character like her prove to be bisexual would have been fascinating. I should also note it would make the Babylon Five comparisons even more blatant given JMS wanted to do the same thing with Ivanova (and suceeded--just perhaps a little too subtly given Talia and she didn't last more than one night)

As for the Kira thing, well there is more to it than just genetics. I mean, identical twins have different personalities and, while I think they're more likely to both be gay if one is, it's far from a sure thing.

I'd heard different things on that in RL. Mind you, you're not wrong.