Another day, another police beating in America

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Bingo. Combine that with everything else that has been going on like political corruption and and how COVID-19 has been handled, of course people are going to react strongly. It's slowly been simmering for a decade and is now at boiling point. If folks like Madner Kami can't recognize that, that's purely their own issue. They can sit at their computer and wag their fingers all they like as far as I'm concerned.

Peaceful protest is the way to go. I perfectly see the impossible place some of the protests were put into, thanks to US Police being the racist shitshow it is, but putting the torch to your own community and your very own neighbourhoods and neighbours only serves to deliver a further cheap excuse to crack down hard and not change a damned thing. Rage against the system all you want, but not the people who you depend upon and who depend on you.

Again, I think there's a breakdown of communication between the left and right on this.

From what I can tell is pretty much nobody condones what the rioters do. The difference though is that the left doesn't see them as speaking for the black community while the right directly ties it overall black activism.

It's not hard to see from a distance that many people within the community are negatively impacted by it, and it is nonetheless out of their control. It's entirely unfair to judge the general Black Lives Matter movement on the rioters themselves.

[pilight]

Also, quite a bit of the rioting is false flag. The mayor of St Paul said 80% of the people they've arrested were white and from out of state. White supremacist groups have been infiltrating and causing mayhem, to say nothing of the undercover cops goading protesters into more drastic action.

[GreyICE]

Again, I think there's a breakdown of communication between the left and right on this.

From what I can tell is pretty much nobody condones what the rioters do. The difference though is that the left doesn't see them as speaking for the black community while the right directly ties it overall black activism.

Condone is an interesting word. It can only be used in a negative fashion. To condone is to find allowable something which is unacceptable. Therefore to use the word is to pass several layers of moral judgment - you must determine a set of things that should be allowable, you must determine something is unacceptable, and you must accuse someone of accepting that which is not within the set. In other words, it's quite loaded. It presupposes a level of "justice" and justice is an abstract. It presumes an authority that can sit in judgment.

In international relations, there's a term - "proportionate response". In other words, you blow up an embassy, we send some cruise missiles to an arms factory. You murder a high ranking official, we hit your army bases. It demonstrates an understanding that your two nations are engaged in violence, but that the responses will be reasonable, but also swift and firm. There's no particular "justice" there, but there's no court to bring it. Instead the response is proportionate violence - an eye for an eye. With systems like North Korea or Syria, it's the only way to handle them. Their government does not accept definitions of right and wrong that are anything other than "what we choose to do is right". So you convince them not to be violent towards you by bloodying their nose when they act up.

If we consider the protests in the framework of an unjust government, then destroying police stations and police equipment is a proportional response to violence and murder. Even a restrained one. Looting of local businesses is a disproportionate response - it's attacking uninvolved civilians. Destruction of Target is a proportionate response, Target is a well-known supporter of the Minneapolis police force (and police forces nationwide) and like any sponsor of violent groups, sometimes their shit gets blown up when the groups they sponsor act up. Theft in general is skeevy, it muddies the water. Better to just burn the place to the ground, rather than loot it. But we have to accept escalating violence attracts bad actors like rotting corpses attracts flies.

Perhaps we would rather run our society on a framework of "justice" rather than "proportionate response". That seems like a good thing to me. But right now we are operating in the framework of "proportionate responses", and justice isn't on the table.

In that sense, I recognize some of what the protesters do is disproportionate. I consider much of it proportionate. I consider some of it weak.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Again, I think there's a breakdown of communication between the left and right on this.

From what I can tell is pretty much nobody condones what the rioters do. The difference though is that the left doesn't see them as speaking for the black community while the right directly ties it overall black activism.

Condone is an interesting word. It can only be used in a negative fashion. To condone is to find allowable something which is unacceptable. Therefore to use the word is to pass several layers of moral judgment - you must determine a set of things that should be allowable, you must determine something is unacceptable, and you must accuse someone of accepting that which is not within the set. In other words, it's quite loaded. It presupposes a level of "justice" and justice is an abstract. It presumes an authority that can sit in judgment.

In international relations, there's a term - "proportionate response". In other words, you blow up an embassy, we send some cruise missiles to an arms factory. You murder a high ranking official, we hit your army bases. It demonstrates an understanding that your two nations are engaged in violence, but that the responses will be reasonable, but also swift and firm. There's no particular "justice" there, but there's no court to bring it. Instead the response is proportionate violence - an eye for an eye. With systems like North Korea or Syria, it's the only way to handle them. Their government does not accept definitions of right and wrong that are anything other than "what we choose to do is right". So you convince them not to be violent towards you by bloodying their nose when they act up.

If we consider the protests in the framework of an unjust government, then destroying police stations and police equipment is a proportional response to violence and murder. Even a restrained one. Looting of local businesses is a disproportionate response - it's attacking uninvolved civilians. Destruction of Target is a proportionate response, Target is a well-known supporter of the Minneapolis police force (and police forces nationwide) and like any sponsor of violent groups, sometimes their shit gets blown up when the groups they sponsor act up. Theft in general is skeevy, it muddies the water. Better to just burn the place to the ground, rather than loot it. But we have to accept escalating violence attracts bad actors like rotting corpses attracts flies.

Perhaps we would rather run our society on a framework of "justice" rather than "proportionate response". That seems like a good thing to me. But right now we are operating in the framework of "proportionate responses", and justice isn't on the table.

In that sense, I recognize some of what the protesters do is disproportionate. I consider much of it proportionate. I consider some of it weak.

That's an interesting framework, but I think it might break down between state and civilian levels. These riots are happening all over as a proxy effect of one case that got nationwide coverage. Organizing this as a marshal retaliatory measure, then you start to recognize it as something the state has to more or less deal with as a guerilla invasion.

I just think it might be better to treat it as a civilian issue, which I'm sure the UN has guideline definitions for such treatment affairs that don't involve the State being implicated by smaller incorporated jurisdictions (that talk to the state before the fed).

[Riedquat]

Bingo. Combine that with everything else that has been going on like political corruption and and how COVID-19 has been handled, of course people are going to react strongly. It's slowly been simmering for a decade and is now at boiling point. If folks like Madner Kami can't recognize that, that's purely their own issue. They can sit at their computer and wag their fingers all they like as far as I'm concerned.

I get seriously pissed and depressed about all sorts of things, to the point where I don't find it hard to empaphise with people who carry out awful attacks on those they feel are responsible for what they hate. I don't sympathise with them or agree with them in the slightest; their actions turn my stomach, but I can understand the sort of mentality that would drive someone to that.

What I can't though is the idea that you'll just go around and randomly smash stuff that has no part to play in causing your anger, no matter the situation. That's not reacting strongly, that's just being a jerk. It's the difference between lashing back at the police responsible and punching someone who happens to be walking by.

[Riedquat]

Again, I think there's a breakdown of communication between the left and right on this.

From what I can tell is pretty much nobody condones what the rioters do. The difference though is that the left doesn't see them as speaking for the black community while the right directly ties it overall black activism.

It's not hard to see from a distance that many people within the community are negatively impacted by it, and it is nonetheless out of their control. It's entirely unfair to judge the general Black Lives Matter movement on the rioters themselves.

Now that's fair enough and all too often good causes have been poisoned by people who have associated with them and just caused trouble. But it does mean giving no time, and definitely no defence, to the general rioters.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Again, I think there's a breakdown of communication between the left and right on this.

From what I can tell is pretty much nobody condones what the rioters do. The difference though is that the left doesn't see them as speaking for the black community while the right directly ties it overall black activism.

It's not hard to see from a distance that many people within the community are negatively impacted by it, and it is nonetheless out of their control. It's entirely unfair to judge the general Black Lives Matter movement on the rioters themselves.

But it does mean giving no time, and definitely no defence, to the general rioters.

K, so no real problem there. But in the general philosophy of judging a society and how they treat its offenders, this is a pretty crucial case to understand where they're coming from.

I mean that might be a "at the very least" kinda thing or something idunno.

[Darth Wedgius]

More autopsy results in, and they don't agree with the first autopsy's. These show asphyxiation.

It shows the officers involved are culpable, and what we thought we saw (someone being slowly killed while onlookers begged the killer to stop) is what happened.

But then, I don't know why I should believe this autopsy and not the previous one... Except for the vague reason that I expect it's easier to miss something that's there than to see something that isn't.

But it looks like someone's done dirty, and if the PD and the Hennepin County Medical Examiner are both dirty, then people are going to want to flush a lot of a lot of that state's law enforcement and start fresh, and I can't blame them. And this may put Klobuchar out of the running for VP/POTUS, fairly or not.

If the new results are refuted later, it's going to smell to high heaven like a coverup. Epstein 2.0.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

If we're talking about random damage to bystanders, then police response becomes invalid the minute they use tear gas. The worst looters do is damage a small business's property. They don't poison babies and elderly people.