Star Wars, Highly Illiogical Captain

[ORCACommander]

Fact of the matter is, Star wars is far to shallow and self contradictory and vague to seriously be a discussion on philosophy behind what motivates man for good or ill.

[GandALF]

On the other hand, the mere existence of the Exhile means that the control the Force exerts isn't absolute.

Really? Y'know I found this little exchange on the Force:
"So it controls your actions?"
"partially, although it also obeys your commands"
Its from a little film called Star Wars from 1977, has anyone seen it?

Fact of the matter is, Star wars is far to shallow and self contradictory and vague to seriously be a discussion on philosophy behind what motivates man for good or ill.

This is a forum for fans of an old man who shouts profanities at Star Trek characters, we'll argue over whatever the hell we want.

[Dînadan]

Fact of the matter is, Star wars is far to shallow and self contradictory and vague to seriously be a discussion on philosophy behind what motivates man for good or ill.

This is a forum for fans of an old man who shouts profanities at Star Trek characters, we'll argue over whatever the hell we want.

1) surely Chuck's not old, just middle-aged
2) and what you quoted is ORCACommaner's argument on the matter ;p

[ScreamingDoom]

On the other hand, the mere existence of the Exhile means that the control the Force exerts isn't absolute.

Really? Y'know I found this little exchange on the Force:
"So it controls your actions?"
"partially, although it also obeys your commands"
Its from a little film called Star Wars from 1977, has anyone seen it?

a) Obi-Wan can be wrong. The simple fact that Anakin became Vader proves that he can be. More to the point, however, is that so many Jedi fall to the Dark Side indicates that the entire philosophy is irrevocably flawed. This isn't just a one-off thing that happens occasionally. It happens continuously, throughout history, over and over and over again.

b) The "obey" part could really just be the illusion of choice. The Force controls the actions of its puppets when needed, but when they do what it wants anyway, why bother? As long as everything is proceeding according to design, there's really no reason for the Force to exert control. Slaves that don't know they're slaves or -- even better -- believe themselves to be masters are the best kind. They won't even realize they're in shackles.

c) We're talking about events on much larger time scales than individual scenes. It's a bit like psychohistory: the Force can dictate that a Dark Lord will rise and cause a galactic war that results in the building and use of a superweapon, but the specifics are different. Exar Kun, Revan, Vader... they all have basically the same role in the repeating play, even if individually they're quite different.

[GandALF]

a) Obi-Wan can be wrong. The simple fact that Anakin became Vader proves that he can be. More to the point, however, is that so many Jedi fall to the Dark Side indicates that the entire philosophy is irrevocably flawed. This isn't just a one-off thing that happens occasionally. It happens continuously, throughout history, over and over and over again.

So the guy written by the creator of the franchise in the first movie (long before Jar Jar was a twinkle in Lucas' eye) could be wrong, but the crazy lady in the now non-canon spin-off video game is definitely right? It happens continuously not because the philosophy is flawed but because people are flawed. They've been teaching people not to murder since forever but it hasn't stopped yet.

b) The "obey" part could really just be the illusion of choice. The Force controls the actions of its puppets when needed, but when they do what it wants anyway, why bother? As long as everything is proceeding according to design, there's really no reason for the Force to exert control. Slaves that don't know they're slaves or -- even better -- believe themselves to be masters are the best kind. They won't even realize they're in shackles.

It's the desire to be happy. That's what motivates them, that's what they're "slaves" to. That's what you are a "slave" to. It is the primal "force" behind everything people do. Now there is a quick, easy and selfish way to be happy, but its only temporary and getting addicted to it leads to suffering. There is also a permanent selfless happiness, but it's difficult and requires discipline as well keeping your selfish desires in balance.
What Kreia wants to do is become happy by eliminating the desire to be happy. She is insane.

c) We're talking about events on much larger time scales than individual scenes. It's a bit like psychohistory: the Force can dictate that a Dark Lord will rise and cause a galactic war that results in the building and use of a superweapon, but the specifics are different. Exar Kun, Revan, Vader... they all have basically the same role in the repeating play, even if individually they're quite different.

Again, people are flawed. Tyrants think power will make them happy. They end up suffering for it one way or another.

[Madner Kami]

I don't quite follow your line of thought. Kreia constantly lambasts the Jedi for denying their self-interest. Kreia also hates the Sith for being motivated by nothing but self-interest. Kreia is not interested in eliminating desires or emotions, Kreia is interested in finding a middle ground, a true balance between selfishness and selflessness, not the false balance that the Force seems to be leaning towards. She doesn't want others to rely on you and she doesn't want you to rely on others. Kreia is not argueing against emotions or humanity, she's argueing for a measured approach.

[GandALF]

I don't quite follow your line of thought. Kreia constantly lambasts the Jedi for denying their self-interest. Kreia also hates the Sith for being motivated by nothing but self-interest. Kreia is not interested in eliminating desires or emotions, Kreia is interested in finding a middle ground, a true balance between selfishness and selflessness, not the false balance that the Force seems to be leaning towards. She doesn't want others to rely on you and she doesn't want you to rely on others. Kreia is not argueing against emotions or humanity, she's argueing for a measured approach.

What she did to Tobin was part of a "measured approach"?

[Karha of Honor]

I don't quite follow your line of thought. Kreia constantly lambasts the Jedi for denying their self-interest. Kreia also hates the Sith for being motivated by nothing but self-interest. Kreia is not interested in eliminating desires or emotions, Kreia is interested in finding a middle ground, a true balance between selfishness and selflessness, not the false balance that the Force seems to be leaning towards. She doesn't want others to rely on you and she doesn't want you to rely on others. Kreia is not argueing against emotions or humanity, she's argueing for a measured approach.

Didn't she say she has no idea what happens if she kills the Force? Everyone could end up dead?

[Fixer]

Didn't she say she has no idea what happens if she kills the Force? Everyone could end up dead?

The canon answer to what would happen would be Nathema.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nathema

The surface of the planet was stripped entirely of all life. The Sanitarium had living creatures in an arboretum that showed animals/plants could still survive there and there were creatures underground that survived the cataclysm too.

The result of killing the force itself (assuming you don't kill off life in the process as per Vitiate) would probably be similar. Non force sensitive individuals would feel uncomfortable, animals would survive. Anything force sensitive would be driven insane.

After a few generations of life adapting the the lack of presence of the force and the existential nightmare of someone having just murdered the afterlife, things would simply feel normal.

[GandALF]

Didn't she say she has no idea what happens if she kills the Force? Everyone could end up dead?

The canon answer to what would happen would be Nathema.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nathema

The surface of the planet was stripped entirely of all life. The Sanitarium had living creatures in an arboretum that showed animals/plants could still survive there and there were creatures underground that survived the cataclysm too.

The result of killing the force itself (assuming you don't kill off life in the process as per Vitiate) would probably be similar. Non force sensitive individuals would feel uncomfortable, animals would survive. Anything force sensitive would be driven insane.

After a few generations of life adapting the the lack of presence of the force and the existential nightmare of someone having just murdered the afterlife, things would simply feel normal.

It would be more like the tranquil in Dragon Age. In hylomorphic terms they would be (crude) matter but not form. They would have no "force" motivating them to do anything, so they would probably starve to death.

And Nathema is still legends canon. SWTOR is all over the place on this, the newer expansions treat balance as neutral like Bendu, which contradicts Lucas, while there's a master on Tython talking about balance being a Jedi thing and the ending of SoR is pretty close to Lucas' view with balance being achieved by light Revan willingly merging with dark Revan who doesn't want anything to do with light Revan.