DS9 - The Collaborator

[bguy]

The biggest dropped plot on DS9 really was Bajor. After the refusal to join The Federation and signing the non-aggression pact with the Dominion, they stopped mattering.

Yeah, it wasn't even clear if they were in the war or not after Sacrifice of Angels. That episode has Bajoran deputies shooting at Dominion troops, and thereafter Starfleet was conducting military operations from a Bajoran station (without apparent resistance from the Bajorans), so it seems likely that Bajor repudiated the Non-Aggression Pact and entered the war against the Dominion, but I don't think that was ever made explicit.

[Beastro]

The thing that always bothered me about that Bajoran schmuck (his name was Li Nalas) was that people were talking about campaigns he commanded...but he was just some grunt on the ground. He wasn't a commander or leader at all.

I put this on typical Star Trek ignorance of military matters. Same with Enterprise being "the flagship" of Starfleet, admirals directly commanding warships and captains refusing promotion to remain in command of a warship doing eciting stuff instead of reassigned to a dead end job appropriate for someone with a now dead end career.

[Fianna]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

[Beastro]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

Form follows function, which is why Starfleet is de facto a military despite all the talk otherwise, just as their ships are warship despite what else they add to them.

They might be able to get away with the promotion thing being a bad idea through fiat, but they continually hammer in the fact how stupid the other ideas, like allowing every crew members family on board if able, as the opening of DS9 alone shows.

I do get why that is resisted in fiction. Form following function is boring and is why all modern tanks are effectively the same tank despite originating from many different countries. Given the limitations modern warfare places on a tanks ability to survive and fight, they've all been worked down to one basic form with variation coming from each countries preferances and demands.

[Mecha82]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

Form follows function, which is why Starfleet is de facto a military despite all the talk otherwise, just as their ships are warship despite what else they add to them.

They might be able to get away with the promotion thing being a bad idea through fiat, but they continually hammer in the fact how stupid the other ideas, like allowing every crew members family on board if able, as the opening of DS9 alone shows.

I do get why that is resisted in fiction. Form following function is boring and is why all modern tanks are effectively the same tank despite originating from many different countries. Given the limitations modern warfare places on a tanks ability to survive and fight, they've all been worked down to one basic form with variation coming from each countries preferances and demands.

Those are good points. While Starfleet ships have several functions and have families on board (Defiant not included) those are still warships for all purposes with they phasers, photon torpedos and shields and are used for that when situation requires it. Sure Federation might prefer to maintain peace regardless of people that end up suffering from it but they still maintain Starfleet because not to do so would be stupid and short sighted. Not having Starfleet would be open invitation for all other powers to invade.

[clearspira]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

Form follows function, which is why Starfleet is de facto a military despite all the talk otherwise, just as their ships are warship despite what else they add to them.

They might be able to get away with the promotion thing being a bad idea through fiat, but they continually hammer in the fact how stupid the other ideas, like allowing every crew members family on board if able, as the opening of DS9 alone shows.

I do get why that is resisted in fiction. Form following function is boring and is why all modern tanks are effectively the same tank despite originating from many different countries. Given the limitations modern warfare places on a tanks ability to survive and fight, they've all been worked down to one basic form with variation coming from each countries preferances and demands.

Form follows function is how I like to explain all of those 20th century sci fi films and shows that have wireframe graphics on their monitors despite being set in the future. If it works, then the fact its ugly is irrelevant.

Even the TOS communicator makes sense to me. Its simple, rugged and large; that thing will go on and on after the dinky little commbadge gets lost or breaks. Not to mention the TOS communicator allows for manual frequency tuning and has a red alert button to warn the crew the landing party is in danger (used once to my memory for some reason).

[FaxModem1]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

Form follows function, which is why Starfleet is de facto a military despite all the talk otherwise, just as their ships are warship despite what else they add to them.

They might be able to get away with the promotion thing being a bad idea through fiat, but they continually hammer in the fact how stupid the other ideas, like allowing every crew members family on board if able, as the opening of DS9 alone shows.

I do get why that is resisted in fiction. Form following function is boring and is why all modern tanks are effectively the same tank despite originating from many different countries. Given the limitations modern warfare places on a tanks ability to survive and fight, they've all been worked down to one basic form with variation coming from each countries preferances and demands.

Those are good points. While Starfleet ships have several functions and have families on board (Defiant not included) those are still warships for all purposes with they phasers, photon torpedos and shields and are used for that when situation requires it. Sure Federation might prefer to maintain peace regardless of people that end up suffering from it but they still maintain Starfleet because not to do so would be stupid and short sighted. Not having Starfleet would be open invitation for all other powers to invade.

Starfleet seemed to relearn the lesson that families on board are a bad thing. Remember, the only civilians on board Voyager were either ones they picked up or ones birthed on board. The Odyssey was probably the straw that broke that policy's back.

[clearspira]

At least as far as the last point goes (about refusing promotion) just because that's how many current militaries are set up doesn't mean that's how a quasi-military organization has to be set up. There are certainly valid arguments for not putting so much pressure on employees to accept/seek out promotion.

Form follows function, which is why Starfleet is de facto a military despite all the talk otherwise, just as their ships are warship despite what else they add to them.

They might be able to get away with the promotion thing being a bad idea through fiat, but they continually hammer in the fact how stupid the other ideas, like allowing every crew members family on board if able, as the opening of DS9 alone shows.

I do get why that is resisted in fiction. Form following function is boring and is why all modern tanks are effectively the same tank despite originating from many different countries. Given the limitations modern warfare places on a tanks ability to survive and fight, they've all been worked down to one basic form with variation coming from each countries preferances and demands.

Those are good points. While Starfleet ships have several functions and have families on board (Defiant not included) those are still warships for all purposes with they phasers, photon torpedos and shields and are used for that when situation requires it. Sure Federation might prefer to maintain peace regardless of people that end up suffering from it but they still maintain Starfleet because not to do so would be stupid and short sighted. Not having Starfleet would be open invitation for all other powers to invade.

Starfleet seemed to relearn the lesson that families on board are a bad thing. Remember, the only civilians on board Voyager were either ones they picked up or ones birthed on board. The Odyssey was probably the straw that broke that policy's back.

Personally said straw and said policy should have been Wolf 359 given how we know from Sisko's flashback that he took his wife and kid with him AGAINST THE BORG.
Y'know, Sisko had no right to have animosity towards Picard when it was his own foolishness that got Jennifer killed. At least the Galaxy class was supposedly a powerful ship; Sisko was tottering around the Alpha Quadrant whilst at the helm of a Miranda - and not any old Miranda, this was the USS Saratoga, Starfleet's bitch. This is not quite Seven's parents, but its close.

[Trinary]

Personally said straw and said policy should have been Wolf 359 given how we know from Sisko's flashback that he took his wife and kid with him AGAINST THE BORG.
Y'know, Sisko had no right to have animosity towards Picard when it was his own foolishness that got Jennifer killed. At least the Galaxy class was supposedly a powerful ship; Sisko was tottering around the Alpha Quadrant whilst at the helm of a Miranda - and not any old Miranda, this was the USS Saratoga, Starfleet's bitch. This is not quite Seven's parents, but its close.

That doesn't seem accurate or fair. For one thing, Sisko was not the Captain of the Saratoga, just its first officer. Furthermore, given how desperate the situation was at Wolf 359--Starfleet was totally unprepared; desperately throwing whatever they had against the Borg, even contemplating begging the Romulans for aid--that I doubt any of the orders to the fleet said 'come to Wolf 359 at your own convenience, feel free to take your time to drop off your civilians and non-essential personnel first. No rush, it's just Earth on the line.'

(Granted, that begs the question of just what the Starfleet's guidelines WERE for those sorts of situations--which I doubt were something they had thought through. In fact, the Enterprise-D's saucer-separation was the only idea we ever saw regarding what to do with civilians before a combat situation.)

In any case, Sisko did not choose to bring his wife and son to that battle after being given an option to have some way to have them sit it out. One can criticize Starfleet policy in having families onboard their ships, but there is no grounds to blame Sisko for the death of his family at Wolf 359; it is nothing even remotely similar to Seven's parents.

[Yukaphile]

Some like Mike Wong think it's an authoritarian social engineering experiment, to test one's loyalty to the state. LOL. He is a first-grade ASSHOLE.