“All lives matter” protesters drop the mask

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Then, Dragon Ball Fan, you need to open your ears and eyes and change the media you consume.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I don't watch any of the news, liberal or otherwise and my only offline source of information on this stuff is my dad who does.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Well, that certainly explains a lot.

[GreyICE]

people can be naturally good but still be be made to be angry enough to ignore rational thought and their sense of compassion.

I do care that police get away with bad things but I hear about the bad things the other side does far more often.

Apparently you get super offended if I suggest that the people feeding you information are presenting a biased worldview, so I'll come about this from a different angle.

Certainly you agree that murder, assault, framing someone for crimes, etc. is more extreme than saying mean words, right? I mean that's your entire fear of radicalization - that saying mean words could lead to terrible actions.

So I can find you endless documentation of the terrible actions that cops have taken. Killing people. Framing people. Putting innocent people in jail for crimes they didn't commit. Assaulting people. Hurting people.

You can find a small handful of examples of protesters doing anywhere near this scale of thing. I mean George Floyd was ALSO falsely arrested and falsely imprisoned by a completely different cop in a completely different state, before he was murdered by a cop. And if that sounds unusual to you, you're not paying attention.

Given that, can you accept any possibility that how you get information might be painting a picture of reality that isn't true?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

people can be naturally good but still be be made to be angry enough to ignore rational thought and their sense of compassion.

I do care that police get away with bad things but I hear about the bad things the other side does far more often.

Apparently you get super offended if I suggest that the people feeding you information are presenting a biased worldview, so I'll come about this from a different angle.

Certainly you agree that murder, assault, framing someone for crimes, etc. is more extreme than saying mean words, right? I mean that's your entire fear of radicalization - that saying mean words could lead to terrible actions.

So I can find you endless documentation of the terrible actions that cops have taken. Killing people. Framing people. Putting innocent people in jail for crimes they didn't commit. Assaulting people. Hurting people.

You can find a small handful of examples of protesters doing anywhere near this scale of thing. I mean George Floyd was ALSO falsely arrested and falsely imprisoned by a completely different cop in a completely different state, before he was murdered by a cop. And if that sounds unusual to you, you're not paying attention.

Given that, can you accept any possibility that how you get information might be painting a picture of reality that isn't true?

I can accept that but one point that I will contest is that these aren't just mean words, you saw the graffiti calling for the death of cops, that is an incitement of violence, which is illegal but I bet any cop who rightfully arrests the individuals who did that will be lumped in with the racist cops.

[GreyICE]

I can accept that but one point that I will contest is that these aren't just mean words, you saw the graffiti calling for the death of cops, that is an incitement of violence, which is illegal but I bet any cop who rightfully arrests the individuals who did that will be lumped in with the racist cops.

No, it strictly isn't an incitement to violence. Incitement to violence is a strict legal term, and it is encouraging imminent lawless action. To break that down, imminent means immediate - right now. Lawless action means it must be a specific call to action, not just generalizations, and encourage... well encourage is straightforward.

The right wing saying "gas the Jews" is not inciting violence. The right wing saying "throw liberals from helicopters" is not inciting violence. The KKK saying "if any n****** come here we'll kill them" is not inciting violence. If it doesn't encourage imminent lawless action, it's protected. When Trump said "someone should have smacked that man" and encouraged his followers to attack any liberals at his rallies, it also wasn't inciting violence. When a lawmaker threatened to shoot any transgender woman he saw using the restroom and encouraged others to do the same, it wasn't inciting violence.

So any cop who arrested someone for that would be a fucking idiot, would get first amendment smacked in court, and would be completely ignorant of the law. Which would be sadly less common than we should be - a lot of cops have a mediocre grasp of the law.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

again, I know there are problems with the police but considering there are some individuals in Black Lives Matter who want to kill cops and there is no means to kick them out of the movement, doesn't that mean the whole movement could potentially be radicalized?

You could say the exact same thing about the government, which is a centralized organization representative of the public. The government represents everybody, and is subject to the same foulability. Same can be said for religion, which has been a tapped into subject on this forum; what is the point of a system of heaven that can apply to the worst of people?

We have fundamental guidelines for this situation on a very broad scale. There's no reason we can't apply this to BLM.

Black Lives Matter is a representation of a political protest. It doesn't exist as much as a privately active entity with inscrutable principle foundations as you would an entertainment, or private governmental party/administration.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I can accept that but one point that I will contest is that these aren't just mean words, you saw the graffiti calling for the death of cops, that is an incitement of violence, which is illegal but I bet any cop who rightfully arrests the individuals who did that will be lumped in with the racist cops.

No, it strictly isn't an incitement to violence. Incitement to violence is a strict legal term, and it is encouraging imminent lawless action. To break that down, imminent means immediate - right now. Lawless action means it must be a specific call to action, not just generalizations, and encourage... well encourage is straightforward.

The right wing saying "gas the Jews" is not inciting violence. The right wing saying "throw liberals from helicopters" is not inciting violence. The KKK saying "if any n****** come here we'll kill them" is not inciting violence. If it doesn't encourage imminent lawless action, it's protected. When Trump said "someone should have smacked that man" and encouraged his followers to attack any liberals at his rallies, it also wasn't inciting violence. When a lawmaker threatened to shoot any transgender woman he saw using the restroom and encouraged others to do the same, it wasn't inciting violence.

So any cop who arrested someone for that would be a fucking idiot, would get first amendment smacked in court, and would be completely ignorant of the law. Which would be sadly less common than we should be - a lot of cops have a mediocre grasp of the law.

okay, fine. and to be clear, if I was actually at the protests, I probably would at the very least passively support them unless they were hurting bystanders or cops who didn't do anything first.

and violence is sometimes needed but the point that confuses me is, if there are peaceful protests going on, why are the violent ones needed? violence is only necessary when peaceful resolutions are completely impossible.

and I don't think the protests are going to really lead to police or white people being marginalized anytime soon but I'd like it if the radical brand of the left's ideology is kept from spreading so nothing like that happens in the first place. if it's bad for the right to be complacent about their extremists, how come it's okay for woke types to act like the extremists in their groups will never ever be a problem?

[GreyICE]

okay, fine. and to be clear, if I was actually at the protests, I probably would at the very least passively support them unless they were hurting bystanders or cops who didn't do anything first.

and violence is sometimes needed but the point that confuses me is, if there are peaceful protests going on, why are the violent ones needed? violence is only necessary when peaceful resolutions are completely impossible.

This is the "central planning fallacy", that there's some great behind-the-scenes group (the illuminati? Majestic 12?) that is coordinating everything, and making everything happen. Instead it's a widely disparate group of movements in cities, with multiple in a city. Seattle alone has at least a dozen different groups protesting. Overall there's probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand different groups across the country.

So when you ask "why is X needed", try to look at people more as individuals and groups, and less as some grand collective that is deciding what to do like some hydra. Most of the protesters denounce violence, many actively work to stop it. Many of the cities have not had violence. As we discussed earlier.

and I don't think the protests are going to really lead to police or white people being marginalized anytime soon but I'd like it if the radical brand of the left's ideology is kept from spreading so nothing like that happens in the first place. if it's bad for the right to be complacent about their extremists, how come it's okay for woke types to act like the extremists in their groups will never ever be a problem?

Lets examine what's different really fast:

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/03/18/year-hate-and-extremism-2019

Like the year before, 2019 saw a spate of domestic terror attacks, both at home and abroad. In Poway, California, a gunman attacked a synagogue, killing a 60-year-old woman and wounding a rabbi and two other people. Also in that state, a man wielding a semi-automatic rifle killed three at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. And three days before the end of the year, in a New York City suburb, a man burst into a rabbi’s home and began slashing people with a machete, wounding five, during a Hanukkah celebration.

By far, the worst carnage wrought by domestic extremists came on Aug. 3 at a Walmart in the border city of El Paso, Texas, a city that is nearly 80 percent Hispanic, when a man opened fire with an AK-47 just as parents and children were taking advantage of a tax-free shopping day before the beginning of the school year. Twenty-two people were killed and another 26 injured...

The number of people killed in white nationalist terror attacks might have been higher if not for several key arrests. In February, a Coast Guard lieutenant—based at the Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C.—was arrested with a stockpile of weapons and a hit list of Democratic politicians and media figures. The FBI said he was a self-identified white nationalist and an admirer of the Norwegian terrorist who killed 77 people during an anti-Muslim rampage in 2011. In addition, a Winter Park, Florida, man with a history of posting racist and antisemitic threats on social media was arrested for plotting to attack a Walmart just days after the mass killing in El Paso. Other white supremacists were arrested for bombing plots that targeted religious institutions, dams and other infrastructure, and law enforcement.

What we're looking at is mass murder here. And far from backing off their rhetoric, they're pushing it harder. They see these as a success. These are not hypothetical attacks occurring at some point in the future, these are real terrorist attacks perpetrated by white nationalists right now. And what do we see? The police force working with white nationalists. We see the police supporting terrorism.

In contrast we have "at some point in the future some 'left wing' might start mass killing cops." Okay. Do you know the fun thing about hypotheticals? They haven't happened. Right wing violence is happening right now. And worse, it's normal. Did you even remember the El Paso massacre? A white supremacist murdered twenty-two people, injured twenty-five more, and you forgot.


Do you know how many cops have been killed in the "wave of violence"? One. Do you know who killed him? A right-wing member of the Boogaloo movement.

So yeah, I'll be more concerned about hypothetical future violence when I see any sign that anyone gives more of a shit about real, actual terrorism occurring right now. Because you now have what, fifty posts about how awful the black lives matter movement is because some day a cop might get hurt, and zero posts about how bad the movement that ACTUALLY KILLED A COP is.


Why are you more scared about hypothetical violence against cops than the people actually killing cops?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

okay, fine. and to be clear, if I was actually at the protests, I probably would at the very least passively support them unless they were hurting bystanders or cops who didn't do anything first.

and violence is sometimes needed but the point that confuses me is, if there are peaceful protests going on, why are the violent ones needed? violence is only necessary when peaceful resolutions are completely impossible.

This is the "central planning fallacy", that there's some great behind-the-scenes group (the illuminati? Majestic 12?) that is coordinating everything, and making everything happen. Instead it's a widely disparate group of movements in cities, with multiple in a city. Seattle alone has at least a dozen different groups protesting. Overall there's probably hundreds, maybe over a thousand different groups across the country.

So when you ask "why is X needed", try to look at people more as individuals and groups, and less as some grand collective that is deciding what to do like some hydra. Most of the protesters denounce violence, many actively work to stop it. Many of the cities have not had violence. As we discussed earlier.

and I don't think the protests are going to really lead to police or white people being marginalized anytime soon but I'd like it if the radical brand of the left's ideology is kept from spreading so nothing like that happens in the first place. if it's bad for the right to be complacent about their extremists, how come it's okay for woke types to act like the extremists in their groups will never ever be a problem?

Lets examine what's different really fast:

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2020/03/18/year-hate-and-extremism-2019

Like the year before, 2019 saw a spate of domestic terror attacks, both at home and abroad. In Poway, California, a gunman attacked a synagogue, killing a 60-year-old woman and wounding a rabbi and two other people. Also in that state, a man wielding a semi-automatic rifle killed three at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. And three days before the end of the year, in a New York City suburb, a man burst into a rabbi’s home and began slashing people with a machete, wounding five, during a Hanukkah celebration.

By far, the worst carnage wrought by domestic extremists came on Aug. 3 at a Walmart in the border city of El Paso, Texas, a city that is nearly 80 percent Hispanic, when a man opened fire with an AK-47 just as parents and children were taking advantage of a tax-free shopping day before the beginning of the school year. Twenty-two people were killed and another 26 injured...

The number of people killed in white nationalist terror attacks might have been higher if not for several key arrests. In February, a Coast Guard lieutenant—based at the Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C.—was arrested with a stockpile of weapons and a hit list of Democratic politicians and media figures. The FBI said he was a self-identified white nationalist and an admirer of the Norwegian terrorist who killed 77 people during an anti-Muslim rampage in 2011. In addition, a Winter Park, Florida, man with a history of posting racist and antisemitic threats on social media was arrested for plotting to attack a Walmart just days after the mass killing in El Paso. Other white supremacists were arrested for bombing plots that targeted religious institutions, dams and other infrastructure, and law enforcement.

What we're looking at is mass murder here. And far from backing off their rhetoric, they're pushing it harder. They see these as a success. These are not hypothetical attacks occurring at some point in the future, these are real terrorist attacks perpetrated by white nationalists right now. And what do we see? The police force working with white nationalists. We see the police supporting terrorism.

In contrast we have "at some point in the future some 'left wing' might start mass killing cops." Okay. Do you know the fun thing about hypotheticals? They haven't happened. Right wing violence is happening right now. And worse, it's normal. Did you even remember the El Paso massacre? A white supremacist murdered twenty-two people, injured twenty-five more, and you forgot.


Do you know how many cops have been killed in the "wave of violence"? One. Do you know who killed him? A right-wing member of the Boogaloo movement.

So yeah, I'll be more concerned about hypothetical future violence when I see any sign that anyone gives more of a shit about real, actual terrorism occurring right now. Because you now have what, fifty posts about how awful the black lives matter movement is because some day a cop might get hurt, and zero posts about how bad the movement that ACTUALLY KILLED A COP is.


Why are you more scared about hypothetical violence against cops than the people actually killing cops?

okay, okay, that is horrible but no one in my personal life would even slightly downplay those terrorist attacks. I think that's another thing, everyone I know of already knows it's bad and should be stopped, so, even if intellectually, we may realize there are systematic problems, the people in my life, myself included, just don't see anyone being apathetic to racism nor domestic terrorism.

and there was that cop serial killer a few years back, sure, he wasn't associated with BLM but wasn't he a black guy using police brutality as a justification?

and I admit, I wrongfully collectivized the protestors but why not think of cops the same way, as a video I found pointed out, not all police departments across the country operate the same way, let alone the fact that not every individual cop abuses their power.