Superman V.S The Elite

[Beastro]

Superman isn't a soldier, Superman isn't a cop, superman isn't even a firefighter, he's a random guy on the street who sees something horrible happening and steps in to try and make the world a slightly better place... just add superpowers.

Most superheroes are that.

I find it reflective of the American cultural origins of comics as that is fundamentally what Americans look on their nation as a whole as.

[TheStarWarsTrek]

the problem is I am looking at this purely from a Watsonian point of view, completely divorced from real life.

when did Batman or Superman say they realize they can't hold everyone else to the same moral standards as themselves? from what I see, they do try to hold everyone else to their incredibly high standards, like in the cartoon, kicking Huntress out of the Justice League even after she decided not to kill her intended target just because she wanted to do so at first.

and from a Watsonian point of view, why did that alternate Earth I brought up turn into a Utopia because of killing villains when others like the Injustice Universe turn out so bad? and for context, the universe I'm talking about is the first version of Earth-51 in the Post-Crisis Multiverse, yes it came from Countdown but the backstory of this universe made perfect sense to me. Basically, on Earth-51, after the Joker killed Jason Todd, Batman killed him in this timeline and then decided to kill all the supervillains, though, realistically, one of the other heroes must have helped him and with the supervillains out of the way, the other superheroes could focus on solving all the real world problems comics have going in the background. Sure, like I said, there would still by psychopaths that kill for no reason even without hunger and poverty but Batman would just kill those. but Batman-51 never went crazy with the killing and spilled it over into killing innocents or became a dictator like Injustice Superman.

I'll defer to what BridgeConsoleMasher said about the Justice League having rules for the first part. For the second part about the alternate universe, if we really need a Watsonian perspective,idk maybe this particular Batman was just sane enough to stop himself before he went too far? Or Robin pulled him back at the very end? Anyway I do think if written badly it can come across like Bats or Supes are one bad day away from going on a killing spree or becoming a dictator. But when written well (IMO this movie and the Justice League Cartoon), it's more about how once they start breaking their rules for one case it's easier to start coming up with justifications to keep doing more and more.

I don't think you understand the math on what a double standard is. It's not just holding different people to different standards. IE It's not a double standard that I hold police and soldiers to a different standard than civilians.

Exactly. I used to read Cracked a lot. They had an article on "bad ass soldiers" and one on "bad ass pacifists". I admired the courage displayed by the individuals on both lists. Does that make me a hypocrite?

Also the context in fictional universes can change things quite a bit. Game of Thrones had me rooting for (or at least sympathetic to) 3 different characters who attempted to kill or did kill children for crying out loud.

[iwfan53]

TL;DR
There is a double standard of how character actions are treated and discussed by audiences and pop culture. And I don't think it's just a framing issue. Can you imagine, if after Supes broke Zod's neck,he quipped "walk away from that you son of a bitch"? People would lose their shit more than they already have. Two sets of rules. One for Superman and one for everyone else. See: all the Batman homicides (Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, Snyder), Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow (CW), The Legends of Tomorrow (CW), Supergirl (CW)

Yeah, there is a double standard.... because there should be two different standards.

Superman is the world's most powerful man.

The guy who was created to be the strongest best brightest most upstanding morally superhero ever who encompassed all that was right about America.... for some reason when a director decides it is okay to show him resorting to killing a supervillain in a situation where he clearly had other options open to him, that makes certain people (or at least me) feel that the director/screen writer/movie production crew either does understand what the "core" of superman, or does understand, and have chosen to try and reshape that core because they like the Elite believe that Superman as a big blue boyscout is an outmoded concept who has no place in a modern world.

The core of Superman is that he doesn't have any need to kill those he's fighting against, he'll defeat them, bring them back to let society judge and punish them, because that's the most morally upright thing possible.


It also doesn't help that Superman killing Zod was less of an isolated incident and more of a capstone of everything that was wrong about Man of Steel not portraying Superman properly (choosing to let his father die rather than hiding his powers is another huge black mark against it for example) and so it makes a useful thing to point at as a clear moment of Superman in that film behaving in a way that is in direct contradiction to how Superman should behave.

Why does the MCU get away with having its hero kill so many people? Because none of those heroes was ever defined by their refusal to kill the way Superman was, and none of them ever managed to secure a place in the American cultural mindset the way that Superman did.

[MyUserName]

In Superman 2, Supes didn't kill Zodd or his lieutenants. (Nor did Lois.) There's footage that didn't make it to the theatrical cut but shows on tv all the time that shows them being carted off by the arctic police after its all said and done.

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/chris-reeve-movies/ric21.jpg

I don't know how much deleted scenes "count", but it was clearly the filmmaker's intent that they be alive at the end, and instead of that footage hiding in a bin it made it to the longer tv cuts pretty much immediately.

Of course the Donner cut reuses the "travel through time" ending so who knows how that works, but Donner has been pretty clear he would have done *something* else for the ending had he actually finished the film, since it did after all get moved up to the first film.

So, instead of killing Zod, he only tortured and maimed him by crushing his hand, and threw him off a steep and deep precipice by which the fall must have broken multiple bones and crushed several internal organs by the force of the impact when he landed.

Sure. Thats merciful.

Look, enjoy what you like, but if you can't see Superman 2 has serious issues... I say take off those nostalgia fogged glasses for a moment.

I grew up in the Christopher Reeve Superman's heyday, I was the kid asking... "so he cant fly fast enough to stop both missiles right? So how does he then fly fast enough to reverse the earths rotation or travel back in time?"

I had even MORE issues with Superman II.

[MithrandirOlorin]

In Superman 2, Supes didn't kill Zodd or his lieutenants. (Nor did Lois.) There's footage that didn't make it to the theatrical cut but shows on tv all the time that shows them being carted off by the arctic police after its all said and done.

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/chris-reeve-movies/ric21.jpg

I don't know how much deleted scenes "count", but it was clearly the filmmaker's intent that they be alive at the end, and instead of that footage hiding in a bin it made it to the longer tv cuts pretty much immediately.

Of course the Donner cut reuses the "travel through time" ending so who knows how that works, but Donner has been pretty clear he would have done *something* else for the ending had he actually finished the film, since it did after all get moved up to the first film.

Deleted Scenes aren't Canon, no one knew about that scene till years later, Reeve's Superman killed Zod with a smile on his face, live with it.

[Karha of Honor]

Superman isn't a soldier, Superman isn't a cop, superman isn't even a firefighter, he's a random guy on the street who sees something horrible happening and steps in to try and make the world a slightly better place... just add superpowers.

Most superheroes are that.

I find it reflective of the American cultural origins of comics as that is fundamentally what Americans look on their nation as a whole as.

Care to elaborate on that?

[Mecha82]

In Superman 2, Supes didn't kill Zodd or his lieutenants. (Nor did Lois.) There's footage that didn't make it to the theatrical cut but shows on tv all the time that shows them being carted off by the arctic police after its all said and done.

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/chris-reeve-movies/ric21.jpg

I don't know how much deleted scenes "count", but it was clearly the filmmaker's intent that they be alive at the end, and instead of that footage hiding in a bin it made it to the longer tv cuts pretty much immediately.

Of course the Donner cut reuses the "travel through time" ending so who knows how that works, but Donner has been pretty clear he would have done *something* else for the ending had he actually finished the film, since it did after all get moved up to the first film.

Deleted Scenes aren't Canon, no one knew about that scene till years later, Reeve's Superman killed Zod with a smile on his face, live with it.

And you are one who determines what is canon and what is not instead of DC, WB or Donner while arrogantly telling others to live it? No it's not up to you and fact that that scene is in TV version makes it valid to be canon even if you don't agree with that.

[gnomedeplume]

Funniest little detail in this is the match that's always in Manchester's mouth. He can be a violent superhero who kills, but god forbid kids see him smoke a cigratte.

[CrypticMirror]

Funniest little detail in this is the match that's always in Manchester's mouth. He can be a violent superhero who kills, but god forbid kids see him smoke a cigratte.

Well kids are unlikely to take up supervillaining (except as going into the tech industry), but they could take up smoking which is far more likely to do them (and anybody standing near them) harm than anything else.

[M.A.C.O.]

Why is a comparison being made to Superman and the MCU on the basis of killing? Superman's no kill rule except for a handful of extreme cases is an iconic thing. Superman doesn't kill and Batman doesn't kill are cultural touchstones. I've never heard anyone ever say Captain America doesn't kill, or Ironman doesn't kill. People complain that superman kills but don't when Captain America kills because they're different people who hold themselves to different standards and as such are held to different standards.

Also the MCU shows us from the very beginning that action movie kill rules apply. Man of Steel tries to have it both ways by having him Superman kill someone in an unnecessarily brutal fashion, then pretend this was one of the dramatic "had no choice" killings by having him cry out.

The comparison is being made between Superman and the MCU, because nearly every single Avenger and or Guardian of the Galaxy (sans Doctor Strange and Spider-Man) have committed homicides or have body counts.

Iron Man - IM1-IM3, Avengers 1-4
Captain America - Cap 1-2, Avengers 1 and 3. My suggestion rewatch the boat scene from Cap 2.
Thor - Thor 1-3, Avengers 4
Black Widow - Past life as assassin, Cap 2, Avengers 3
Hulk - Banner's early rampages kill people, Incredible Hulk, Age of Ultron, combatants in the arena
Hawkye - SHIELD assassin, Avengers 4 as Ronin
Scarlet Witch - Age of Ultron and Captain America 3
War Machine - Iron Man 2
Falcon - Confirmed kills in Iraq, Captain America 2-3
Vision - Age of Ultron
GOTG - GOTG 1 and 2. More about 2 later.
Ant-Man - Ant-Man 1
Black Panther - BP1
Captain Marvel - CM and Avengers 4

For this list, I did not include the cannon fodder armies the Avengers frequently fight. I also didn't include Bucky. Look at all the examples and count them, and it is not a pretty picture.

So? Once again, there is no "no kill" rule in the MCU. None of the guys you listed here have "doesn't kill" as one of the cornerstones of their identity. Like holy shit, why would I hold Superman to the same standard as a bunch of soldiers, warrior kings, arms dealers, mercenary's, thieves, and a rage monster?

By the same token, there is never a no kill rule established in the DCEU. So we're at a 1:1.
In truth, some of them do have rules against killing. I told you that. Because you said you were not aware of Marvel heroes (sans Wolverine and Punisher, obviously) having aversions to killing their enemies. It started en masse with Bendis in 2004. I can provide scans if you need more proof or you can take my word for it.

Superman killed general Zod. A space Hitler, who tried to kill billions of lives on Earth, killed thousands in his one day war, tried to incinerate a family before Superman stopped him. The Avengers ganged up and killed Thanos at the beginning of Avengers 4. Another space Hitler, who succeeded in killing billions, was seriously injured when the Avengers attacked, disarmed (literally) and beheaded by Thor. And no one thought more about it than the man on the moon.

The MCU heroes literally get a free pass on nearly all their confirmed kills. Compare Superman killing Zod, to Iron Man killing this Extremis soldier in IM3. IM3 was release the same summer as MOS.

Or this scene from GOTG 2. Which myself and several of my friends found very distressing. Yondu strolling through his ship, murdering every member of his crew for mutiny.

Iron Man kills someone and delivers a quip. Yondu's murder spree set to "Come a Little Bit Closer". You know, for kids! Totally not "grimdark DC" *growl*.

Oh shit, you mean the space pirate who trafficked children and the arms dealer are held to different standards than the guy who literally symbolizes everything that's supposed to be good about humanity? Say it ain't so.

Nice. If I'm not mistaken, your strategy is to disparage the Marvel characters, while disparaging Superman, in an attempt to not engage with my point and somehow win the debate going on.

Also, the Marvel Universe had a no kill rule for it's major heroes up to and around the time Bendis took over the Avengers titles in 2004. With Avengers Dissassembled. The Ultimate line that started in 2001 had killing from the word go. Granted the main heroes had killed sparingly before, but most were later retconned or flat out ignored by future writers.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know nor care about that and it doesn't apply to the MCU.

There is no maybe. The Avengers and other big Marvel heroes didn't kill regularly until Bendis. I know you don't know. You said as much here, "I've never heard anyone ever say Captain America doesn't kill, or Ironman doesn't kill". That's why I gave you the answer. Not a good look to bring a point up and then drop it, when it become inconvenient to your argument/narrative.

TL;DR
There is a double standard of how character actions are treated and discussed by audiences and pop culture. And I don't think it's just a framing issue. Can you imagine, if after Supes broke Zod's neck,he quipped "walk away from that you son of a bitch"? People would lose their shit more than they already have. Two sets of rules. One for Superman and one for everyone else. See: all the Batman homicides (Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, Snyder), Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow (CW), The Legends of Tomorrow (CW), Supergirl (CW)

I don't think you understand the math on what a double standard is. It's not just holding different people to different standards. IE It's not a double standard that I hold police and soldiers to a different standard than civilians.

I don't know what you mean here. I listed and demonstrated how nearly every other Marvel and DC character that's been adapted to live action in the last 20 years, has been allowed to kill their enemies and get away with it in pop culture and to audience. Supes is the only one who has been singled out. Thereby, creating a double standard.

E.g. It was wrong from Superman to kill space Hitler, Zod. But when Wonder Woman killed the genocidal Ares, people cheered! Wind the clock back to 2005, with Infinite Crisis to see how the world reacted to Wonder Woman killing someone. No one was cool with it.

TL;DR
There is a double standard of how character actions are treated and discussed by audiences and pop culture. And I don't think it's just a framing issue. Can you imagine, if after Supes broke Zod's neck,he quipped "walk away from that you son of a bitch"? People would lose their shit more than they already have. Two sets of rules. One for Superman and one for everyone else. See: all the Batman homicides (Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, Snyder), Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow (CW), The Legends of Tomorrow (CW), Supergirl (CW)

Yeah, there is a double standard.... because there should be two different standards.

Superman is the world's most powerful man.

The guy who was created to be the strongest best brightest most upstanding morally superhero ever who encompassed all that was right about America.... for some reason when a director decides it is okay to show him resorting to killing a supervillain in a situation where he clearly had other options open to him, that makes certain people (or at least me) feel that the director/screen writer/movie production crew either does understand what the "core" of superman, or does understand, and have chosen to try and reshape that core because they like the Elite believe that Superman as a big blue boyscout is an outmoded concept who has no place in a modern world.

I am genuinely curious what Superman's other options were when dealing with Zod at the climax of MOS. Grant Morrison, Joe Kelly (author of What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way), Mark Waid, and Mark Millar all said post-MOS that Supes would have found another way. But, incidentally, none of them ever explained or detailed what that other way was.

With no Phantom Zone projector, no Kryptonite, no prison on Earth that could hold, and Zod being uncontrollable villain with the same strength, durability and mobility as Superman. What is you solution? I can stand to be convinced.

The core of Superman is that he doesn't have any need to kill those he's fighting against, he'll defeat them, bring them back to let society judge and punish them, because that's the most morally upright thing possible.

Context is key. I can't understate enough that Zod is always portrayed as space Hitler, evil Superman. And just about every time Superman clashes with Zod, he ends up dying.

Superman II Zod
Pocket Universe Zod
Russian Zod
Return to Krypton Zod
For Tomorrow Zod
Man of Steel Zod
Earth One Zod

Also, the mainline Superman has killed Doomsday (just about every year now), Brainiac (Captain Picard would not approve), Vampires (sentient lifeforms), and the Anti-Monitor (Crisis on Infinite Earth). And no one cares. I'm not even going to include the Golden Age occurrences.

Why does the MCU get away with having its hero kill so many people? Because none of those heroes was ever defined by their refusal to kill the way Superman was, and none of them ever managed to secure a place in the American cultural mindset the way that Superman did.

Comics Code didn't allow it either. Also, the Avengers had a no kill rule up till Bendis took over in 2004. What I'm trying to demonstrate and what I'm noticing, is that people are more flexible with other characters crossing than line, than they are with Supes doing so.