SF Debris's real thoughts, "Covenant," Dukat, complex questions, Prophets?

[Yukaphile]

I had asked long ago what SF Debris's real thoughts might be on Sisko's real mother, that she was essentially a rape victim, and so was Pa Sisko by illusion (making him the unknowing victim-perpetrator), and to me, that really cemented my view of the Prophets as manipulative, self-serving assholes, contrary to Chuck's view that at the end of DS9 it just came down to traditional "good vs. evil." Well, I'm creating a new thread on this topic, related to the Prophets, but nothing to do with Sisko's mother.

I'm rewatching "Covenant," as much as I hate it due to the character assassination of Dukat, but before he... is assassinated, he raises some great questions. The Prophets are the self-proclaimed gods of Bajor. Why don't they ever get involved in Bajor's affairs? Sisko had to strong-arm them to get them to agree to stop a Dominion invasion fleet that would have punished Bajor in retaliation for the treason of Kira's new resistance cell, and if not, at least been the occupation all over again once they absorbed Bajor into the Dominion - and even then, they demanded a price. Now in "Covenant," Dukat asks why they never bothered to help the Bajorans when the Cardassians were literally raping the land and the people, and engaging in mass murder. He has a legit point. If they're the gods of Bajor, why don't they ever actually HELP the Bajorans? This almost seems to reinforce what I'd brought up with Sarah Sisko, that they just see those affiliated with them, "of Bajor," as useful pawns. The Prophets could have driven the Cardassians off of Bajor within weeks if they'd wanted to. They are entities, if not on Q's level of power, at least close to it, so it's definitely something they could do. That means they knowingly chose to let millions die under their watch. And I dunno, but I can't help but see godly beings who treat their own followers as disposable toys as anything but "good." So in summation, the Prophets vs. the Pah-wraiths might come down to a case of black vs. grey morality, at best.

What do you guys think? Does Dukat have a point? Should the Prophets have gotten involved in the occupation to drive off the Cardassians?

[sayla0079]

I said this on another page but honestly between Kira, Worf and maybe Ezri i'm surprised Dukat even survived till the end of the series.

[Yukaphile]

My question is not about that, but on whether strawman/extremist has a point.

[sayla0079]

I know I was just saying.

As for if he has a point I think it's split. Whie yes the prophets could have helped the Bajorans during the occupation, maybe the prophets wanted the Bajorans to solve their own problems.

[Yukaphile]

That's similar to the Prime Directive... do you support that?

[sayla0079]

That's similar to the Prime Directive... do you support that?

Depends on the situation.If it means millions die screw the prime directive but if its like what happened in Patterns of Force then its good to have.

[Yukaphile]

Millions were dying in the occupation, and much worse. Why didn't the Prophets get involved, if they profess to care so much about Bajor? It is a legitimate point to discuss. You simply spout PD slogans. All Kira could offer was religious mumbo-jumbo that "the path the Prophets have laid out for us isn't always easy, but that's no excuse to turn to hate and fear," which is one of the reasons I don't belong to organized religion or practice a faith - it's dogmatic. And the cult never struck me as particularly hateful or terrified, yet that doesn't stop Kira making a strawman out of them.

[CharlesPhipps]

Millions were dying in the occupation, and much worse. Why didn't the Prophets get involved, if they profess to care so much about Bajor? It is a legitimate point to discuss. You simply spout PD slogans. All Kira could offer was religious mumbo-jumbo that "the path the Prophets have laid out for us isn't always easy, but that's no excuse to turn to hate and fear," which is one of the reasons I don't belong to organized religion or practice a faith - it's dogmatic. And the cult never struck me as particularly hateful or terrified, yet that doesn't stop Kira making a strawman out of them.

Well the Doylist is, "There's no story otherwise."

The Watsonian is the fact that:

1. They know the Bajorians will overthrow the Cardassians
2. It will put them in touch with the Federation
3. It will help save the galaxy from the Dominion

The complete mind-fuckery answer?

1. The Prophets didn't have any contact with the Bajorans or understand them until they met Sisko
2. They went back in time to deal with the Bajorans before that point and give them orbs.
3. They arranged for Sisko's birth
4. All of time leads up to the meeting with Sisko and must be in continuity

[Yukaphile]

I dunno, they seemed indifferent to the affairs of the Dominion, even stating "corporeal matters do not concern us" when Sisko begged them for help. Except for Bajor, but then, they won't help in any tangible way. This is not like our gods, which are most likely false or misinterpreted by ancient primitives - how can you expect someone in the fifth century BC to know a meteor strike isn't the wrath of a divine deity? No, these are beings with godlike powers, and could use it to help the world they've staked a claim to, and they do not past offering signs and portents. That's why I tend to see them as self-serving pricks, akin to the Chaos Gods from 40K - though obviously way less extreme, but no less self-absorbed, if that makes sense.

[CharlesPhipps]

I dunno, they seemed indifferent to the affairs of the Dominion, even stating "corporeal matters do not concern us" when Sisko begged them for help. Except for Bajor, but then, they won't help in any tangible way. This is not like our gods, which are most likely false or misinterpreted by ancient primitives - how can you expect someone in the fifth century BC to know a meteor strike isn't the wrath of a divine deity? No, these are beings with godlike powers, and could use it to help the world they've staked a claim to, and they do not past offering signs and portents. That's why I tend to see them as self-serving pricks, akin to the Chaos Gods from 40K - though obviously way less extreme, but no less self-absorbed, if that makes sense.

The problem with this argument is that they DO intervene whenever Sisko, who is their Emissary, asks them to up to and including vaporizing the entire Dominion fleet as it comes to the Alpha Quadrant. Sisko is apparently their human connection to the Bajoran system.

Given they created him, it seems that either:

1. They began their interest in coproral matters because of Sisko and the effects ripple across the timeline like Doctor Who.
2. They were flat out lying to him--which is a thing they do.

As we see with the False Emissary, they're capable of quite delicate mental manipulation. But a big part of the Prophets is they're non-corporal and non-linear so whatever they do is going to have a long term view.

The Occupation was terrible but it saved the galaxy.