Ancients vs. Federation (Morals off, bloodlusted)

[Yukaphile]

This ain't rocket science. Only limitation I can think of is no time travel, even with morals off, I can't see either side doing that. The Stargate Ancients vs. the Federation, who wins?! My money's on the Ancients, personally.

[Madner Kami]

The Ancients of which time-frame?

[Yukaphile]

Pre-Ascension.

[Nealithi]

Morals off and it is rocks fall everyone dies.
For some reason I am not impressed with Ancient ships. Intergalactic FTL and the Gate Network? Very much so.
Federation can use Genesis devices and Trilithium to detonate stars however. With no morals this escalates to galactic if not intergalactic genocide.

[Deledrius]

Morals off and it is rocks fall everyone dies.
For some reason I am not impressed with Ancient ships. Intergalactic FTL and the Gate Network? Very much so.
Federation can use Genesis devices and Trilithium to detonate stars however. With no morals this escalates to galactic if not intergalactic genocide.

Basically. It's also literally not the Federation at that point, so it's kinda arbitrary as a premise.

I think it might make more sense to pose it as a more general "Stargate universe tech vs Star Trek universe tech" hypothetical, if we're assuming the Ancients and the Federation generally have the most (potentially) destructive stuff being underutilized anyway.

Either way, I 100% agree that it's basically an "everyone dies" scenario.

[Frustration]

The curious thing is that the "extended universe" of ST already included the capacity to destroy stars: it was actually a consequence of using warp drives too close to the star in question. Which, among other things, explained why so few people ever attempted to duplicate the ST-IV slingshot time-travel method.

The Ancients could travel between galaxies in minutes. They could also built a device capable of scourging an entire galaxy of a specifically-targeted type of life. They'd win, hands down. The Federation wouldn't stand a chance.

[Yukaphile]

They have the Dakara superweapon. And exploding Gates also can pretty much fuck up a planet very badly. That being said, the Feds do have something like the soliton wave, but I never said we were using continuity. As I've established, Star Trek never had the best continuity, by design.

[Frustration]

Even if it turned out that ST shields could protect against things like the Dakara Superweapon, the superior mobility of the Ancients would be decisive.

Absolute worst case, the Ancients could simply detonate every star around the Federation, and move farther away than the Federation could reach in order to be free of reprisals. That's an absurd case, but it's the endcase. The Ancients had more potentially-destructive technology than the Federation does.

(Well, the true worst-case scenario would involve taking the plague sent to the Ancients by the Ori and spreading it to the Federation. But that really is "everyone dies".)

[clearspira]

Federation ships are sloooooow. The Daedalus (which supposedly is slow by Ancient standards) can get from the Milky Way to Pegasus within a few days with a ZPM and a few weeks without. Voyager can get from one side of the Milky Way to the other in 75 years. This combined with the fact that you cannot track a ship in hyperdrive means that the Ancients can launch surprise attacks anywhere within the Federation.
BUT...
Hyperdrive takes you out of normal space, kind of like Borg transwarp does. Meaning that Stargate ships minus the Destiny (which doesn't use hyperdrive) are limited to sublight engines during combat. And there is an episode of TOS that specifically deals with a Klingon ship attacking the Enterprise using warp drive when the latter was limited to impulse - and its a curbstomp battle. You cannot hit an FTL ship with non FTL weapons.

Basically in 1-on-1 warfare I rate the Federation.

But shall I tell you what REALLY puts the Federation beyond the Ancients? The Ancients are smug and cocky. Too reliant on their technological advantages to be able to adapt on the fly. Its one of the reasons why they canonically lost to the Wraith.
So your drones can pass through shields? Seven of Nine has a new shield for that.
So your hyperdrive can attack the Federation without warning? Mr Data has a new sensor for that.
So you have a superweapon on Dakara? Jadzia has a new shield for that.
So your ships have cloaks? Get Ambassador Spock on the line.
So you have some kind of nanomachine weapon? ''My name is Janeway of Borg and I have a better one.''

I'm partially joking here of course but this is why the Federation without moral constraints would be the one of the most dangerous enemies in all of fiction. They have planet destroying weapons, the ability to replace their material losses using replicators and the brainpower to find your weaknesses and then completely nullify them. Whatever the result though, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. The galaxy and maybe even time itself would be up in flames.

[clearspira]

Morals off and it is rocks fall everyone dies.
For some reason I am not impressed with Ancient ships. Intergalactic FTL and the Gate Network? Very much so.
Federation can use Genesis devices and Trilithium to detonate stars however. With no morals this escalates to galactic if not intergalactic genocide.

Basically. It's also literally not the Federation at that point, so it's kinda arbitrary as a premise.

I think it might make more sense to pose it as a more general "Stargate universe tech vs Star Trek universe tech" hypothetical, if we're assuming the Ancients and the Federation generally have the most (potentially) destructive stuff being underutilized anyway.

Either way, I 100% agree that it's basically an "everyone dies" scenario.

If this scenario is changed to ''Star Trek vs Stargate'' then it would automatically become a battle between the adaptive powers of the Borg and the Replicators with everyone else left to pick up the pieces.

...and then the Doctor steps out of the TARDIS and beats both of them using the Moment as literally all of existence is now at stake.