Babylon Five: Learning Curve

[Nobody700]

So... let me declare a bit of something. Lochley's argument and than everyone claps is one of the single dumbest things I ever seen on Babylon 5, and I seen them declare dumbo was an apex predator. Why anyone on the station CLAPS for Lochley... this is why I can't stand the character. JMS really wants you to like her, but gives her NOTHING to like about. Her being on Clark's side isn't the problem, it's the fact NO ONE can challenge her on it. Lochley's argument comes off very disgusting given my knowledge of history, and I come to the idea that, while SF Debris is right she didn't know... I can't trust a woman so brazen and defensive of her career as a Clark supporter. I can't not see her as LYING and in actuality, a massive supporter of Clark. Why? Look at how she treats anyone who attempts to defy her, as an enemy she must insult and berate in public. She doesn't seem to appreciate voices that aren't for her, and while Sheridan's support of her is supposed to show she's a good pick, frankly, she comes off having gotten the job cause Sheridan isn't objective about her. Lochley's outright hatred (yes, hatred) of psychics doesn't help. I have no love for Byron and his cult, but even I can recognize Byron, when not being a pimple, is right that psychics are treated like crap. Lochley seems to despise them not cause they're idiots and jerks, but for existing. Now a later episode will show her defending them, but this is from Bender... who she brought INTO THINGS because she hated the psychics so much, she wanted them gone, and only realized how bad things were when she met the guy. Which tells me, she DIDN'T research him at all, or if she did, ignored it. Lochley is not a commander I respect, much of this comes from personal beliefs I have of 'just following orders' people, and the fact she NEVER has an episode about it and confronted on it makes her come off as some victor I do not, and cannot, care about.

[Nealithi]

I want to debate this. I like debating things like this and hearing good arguments. But I am also not much of a Lochley fan.
I might say based on what is seen in the show. Her view on telepaths and general negativity is normalized there? Let me explain. Telepaths are not trusted, and when we see them they seem to earn that distrust by going into 'norms' minds at their amusement. They were given a nice independent colony to live in. (Psi Corp) Why are they being so annoying? Then you see how said colony is operated and you might have more sympathy. Basically she has been drinking the kool aid so long and does not have the perspective the audience has.
As to general negativity. Existence of brown sector, government assigned personnel to the station. Now raise the rent on their quarters so the commander of the station is homeless. It is a whole company store situation. Like paying rent on your bunk on an aircraft carrier. And everyone in universe took it as perfectly normal.

So casual indifference is baked into Earth culture for B5.

[Nobody700]

I want to debate this. I like debating things like this and hearing good arguments. But I am also not much of a Lochley fan.
I might say based on what is seen in the show. Her view on telepaths and general negativity is normalized there? Let me explain. Telepaths are not trusted, and when we see them they seem to earn that distrust by going into 'norms' minds at their amusement. They were given a nice independent colony to live in. (Psi Corp) Why are they being so annoying? Then you see how said colony is operated and you might have more sympathy. Basically she has been drinking the kool aid so long and does not have the perspective the audience has.
As to general negativity. Existence of brown sector, government assigned personnel to the station. Now raise the rent on their quarters so the commander of the station is homeless. It is a whole company store situation. Like paying rent on your bunk on an aircraft carrier. And everyone in universe took it as perfectly normal.

So casual indifference is baked into Earth culture for B5.

You actually do bring up a good point, it is hard to bash Lochley for this when everyone, even the good guys, are baked in with this belief. I say more the problem is, while they do have these beliefs, they can change and do realize, though not too much but do, they did have biases and dislikes of the telepaths. Lochely, again while she realizes this, kind of just does it again after four seasons so we have a more negative opinion of her after our heroes got better on it. Her association with Clark's regime also doesn't help, course as the show fails to do, go more into why she was loyal beyond 'following orders'. Thus, I confess I may be doing personal bias of seeing her as a Clark Apologist to SOME areas, given how she acts, so her dislike of telepaths is, while normal, does not present her as very sympathetic. She's not evil, but she is someone of dubious morality the show sidelines.

[Wargriffin]

The problem is the Clark Apologist Angle was never gonna work, and thats JMS' own fault cause He made the Clark side as cartoonishly evil as he could 'Like seriously The open fire on a CIVILIAN dome and stormed the NEWS!'

that and there really isn't much nuance given to Clark who is basically a nothing character

[McAvoy]

There was something with Lochley that always put me off. Never really figured it out.

But yeah her whole argument being on Clark's side never sat with me. It was just a bad take on the 'there is good guys on both sides' argument because it dangerously goes in the side of 'I am only following orders'. She could have easily said 'I stayed neutral, I did not want to commit to either side because I would be firing on my own people'. And then leave it at that. Leave it to the audience to figure out if she was being a good officer or a coward or whatever.

[Wargriffin]

There was something with Lochley that always put me off. Never really figured it out.

But yeah her whole argument being on Clark's side never sat with me. It was just a bad take on the 'there is good guys on both sides' argument because it dangerously goes in the side of 'I am only following orders'. She could have easily said 'I stayed neutral, I did not want to commit to either side because I would be firing on my own people'. And then leave it at that. Leave it to the audience to figure out if she was being a good officer or a coward or whatever.

Basically the problem is if JMS wanted to play the Military as having its hands tied cause Didn't want to promote going Maverick

He failed at it, Its essentially a problem with ALL the Clark Loyalist characters who are suppose to be good people - like Sheridan's mentor- Its like You get the impression they don't do Clark's bidding but they don't actively rebel so Clark's regime seems to have two wings of the military

The guys who are loyal to Earth but just kinda ignore Clark's atrocities and the guys who are willing to commit said atrocities

and yeah If Lockley had simply come out and said

"I didn't do anything John!, I was under house arrest cause I refused to follow orders and I couldn't find it in myself to fight people I knew, If that makes me Weak so be it"

Thats a Stance... JMS clearly hadn't figured out what her stance was suppose to be so he left it vague

[Fianna]

I'd note, the Nuremberg trials, which made "just following orders" famous as a non-excuse, was specifically prosecuting people involved in violence against civilians. German soldiers who fought against legitimate military targets, or functioned in support capacities, were not put on trial just because the side they fought for was bad.

And people fighting on Clarke's side would have even more of an excuse than WWII Germans. Hitler's regime began by dismantling the old order of government, and was in power for several years before the war, during which time its goals and ideology were quite clear - so you can at least say the German soldiers knew what they were signing up for. Clarke, by contrast, was simply the latest president to come to power under the accepted system of government, with their authoritarian acts framed as temporary "emergency powers", and as their regime last just a few years, most officers presumably joined up before Clarke took office.