A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

[Winter]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

How is it a bad example? Sure he is pretty much the only one that showed any difficulty with the Force in the movies. Anakin in Episode 1 had no training and pretty much only showed some instinctual level of the Force. In 2 and 3 he had ten years and more of learning how to use it and mastering it.

Rey does it more or less right off of the bat.

That's just the movies, in the cartoon series Clone Wars and Rebels we do see padawans or Force sensitive users show difficulty with using the Force.

But that's not even the point. Luke is a damn near step by step following if the Hero's Journey. It was a set up for the whole movie in his showdown with Darth Vader. It was shown that he still needs training and does go through on finding Yoda to complete his training. And then he left before it was complete to face Vader. Which sets up the failure.

Going by just the films, not taking any EU stories into account, is that in the first two Trilogies a LOT of time passes. The Original Trilogy is set over the course of 5 or 6 years and the Prequel Trilogy is set over the course of 12 or 14 years. In both The Phantom Menace and A New Hope both Anakin and Luke were gifted pilots with fast reflexes who were able to take down space stations in one shot but that was it.

After several years of training neither Luke nor Anakin were able to best someone who had more experience in both the Force and Lightsaber combat and needed to put more time into their training in order to best the one who defeated them and even with that in mind neither of them won they final fight. Anakin was defeated by Obi-Wan and Luke got one shot by Palpatine when the Sith Lord decided to show what he could do.

With TDST, after One Week (At Most) of learning she had powers Rey learned things it took Luke and Anakin years to master, defeated several enemies who were trained in combat and after one extra year of training defeated one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time AFTER he got a power boast. Using just the films as the example we see that it takes Time to learn how the Force works and that means several YEARS of training which is a point the Jedi hammer into the ground how you NEED to train in order to master the Force.

But in TDST Rey is able to do everything Luke and Anakin did in days and was more powerful they either of them were by the end of film TWO in her Trilogy and, again, defeated Palpatine rather easily even though he was powerful enough to take out an entire fleet, briefly, in ONE SHOT!!!

And again, in the Lego Star Wars Holiday Special Rey had to be toned down and during her fight with Palpatine and Vader she was clearly outmatched and needed help. Again, the PARODY from a series that makes a living out of poking fun at how OP some characters are (and that's including BATMAN) needed to tone Rey down because it was to over the top even for a comedy.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

How is it a bad example? Sure he is pretty much the only one that showed any difficulty with the Force in the movies. Anakin in Episode 1 had no training and pretty much only showed some instinctual level of the Force. In 2 and 3 he had ten years and more of learning how to use it and mastering it.

He's not a sign of proof for anything because he's just one person who was trained in unorthodox fashion.

Rey does it more or less right off of the bat.

.. And she's not, it's really not that much of a stretch. Official canon says she naturally resisted Kylo's mind steal and she got a hand print from him or something. Otherwise, she met Han Solo and found a light saber. She's more than half way to where Luke was just from that.

That's just the movies, in the cartoon series Clone Wars and Rebels we do see padawans or Force sensitive users show difficulty with using the Force.

But that's not even the point.

.. Yeah but they're kids, who aren't intuitive. It's reasonably understood as a give and take.

Luke is a damn near step by step following if the Hero's Journey. It was a set up for the whole movie in his showdown with Darth Vader. It was shown that he still needs training and does go through on finding Yoda to complete his training. And then he left before it was complete to face Vader. Which sets up the failure.

Unfortunately I don't find Rey's plot very compelling. I like how you bring up Luke's confrontation with his father, as it seems like a fitting thing that gives texture to his story while Rey's seems cherry picked.

[McAvoy]

Luke's not very good proof of how difficult it is to learn the the force.

The movie just showed him having a tough time, and we can't just assume everything about the force from his scenes.

How is it a bad example? Sure he is pretty much the only one that showed any difficulty with the Force in the movies. Anakin in Episode 1 had no training and pretty much only showed some instinctual level of the Force. In 2 and 3 he had ten years and more of learning how to use it and mastering it.

He's not a sign of proof for anything because he's just one person who was trained in unorthodox fashion.

Rey does it more or less right off of the bat.

.. And she's not, it's really not that much of a stretch. Official canon says she naturally resisted Kylo's mind steal and she got a hand print from him or something. Otherwise, she met Han Solo and found a light saber. She's more than half way to where Luke was just from that.

That's just the movies, in the cartoon series Clone Wars and Rebels we do see padawans or Force sensitive users show difficulty with using the Force.

But that's not even the point.

.. Yeah but they're kids, who aren't intuitive. It's reasonably understood as a give and take.

Luke is a damn near step by step following if the Hero's Journey. It was a set up for the whole movie in his showdown with Darth Vader. It was shown that he still needs training and does go through on finding Yoda to complete his training. And then he left before it was complete to face Vader. Which sets up the failure.

Unfortunately I don't find Rey's plot very compelling. I like how you bring up Luke's confrontation with his father, as it seems like a fitting thing that gives texture to his story while Rey's seems cherry picked.

Luke is perfectly fine to be used as an example. The trilogy shows his progression to some farm boy to a Jedi Knight. His piloting skills was mentioned in the first movie to lead to the Death Star trench fight. His struggles with the Force and leaving before he finished his training led to his defeat by Vader. His further training and better use of the Force allowed him to fight Vader more on equal footing.

We got that character story progression in the movies. We also got from 5 and 6 that Luke is someone powerful in Force. Between the discussion between Vader and the Emperor in 5 being a threat to the Emperor wanting him to take his Vader's place in 6.

Post original trilogy placed more emphasis on Luke being a very powerful Jedi even before the Prequels. Now he is the son of Anakin, who is supposed to be more powerful than anyone. Potentially.

Rey on the other hand, since you think I am cherry picking. She can pilot the Falcon even though there is no prior mention of that in the movie up to that point. Anakin's lightsaber calls out to her for some reason.

She resists Kylo which I explained is OK, but then she can do the reverse to Kylo. Which you would think if Kylo is trained to read minds, he would be able to resist someone who is doing it to him. Especially from someone who had no prior experience or training with that. Some novel or behind the scenes info states that she downloaded Kylo's knowledge of the Force from him.

She fights a injured Kylo with a lightsaber. She has what we assume is some sort of training with a staff, but the motions of a staff weapon and a Saber are different. But whatever. She was granted for most of it, backing off.

The Force Awakens Rey isn't that bad. Yes she is probably about half way to Luke in Episode 5 at this point. Maybe a bit further.

The comparison between Luke and Rey is apt because they started at the same point from the beginning. Where Luke has to work for it, everything was given to her, easy for her. And that is point!

It's not Luke being a bad example! It's Rey!

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey on the other hand, since you think I am cherry picking.

Huh? Where did you get that?

[McAvoy]

Rey on the other hand, since you think I am cherry picking.

Huh? Where did you get that?

Maybe I read it wrong but your last sentence in your last comment said something about Rey being cherry picked. I thought you were talking about me cherry picking Rey

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey on the other hand, since you think I am cherry picking.

Huh? Where did you get that?

Maybe I read it wrong but your last sentence in your last comment said something about Rey being cherry picked. I thought you were talking about me cherry picking Rey

Oh no! The movie I meant.

[McAvoy]

Rey on the other hand, since you think I am cherry picking.

Huh? Where did you get that?

Maybe I read it wrong but your last sentence in your last comment said something about Rey being cherry picked. I thought you were talking about me cherry picking Rey

Oh no! The movie I meant.

Oh! Lol. Well I wasted my time breaking her down then.

I did think about another point about Luke from Empire. In that movie, Luke went to Dagobah looking for a famed Jedi Master and basically swept aside Yoda as some crazy local until Yoda switched from crazy local to Jedi Master. Between this and his training with Yoda and trying to lift his X Wing out of the swamp showed how much Luke had to go.

The whole movie was a set up for Luke to fail. And the thing is, in Return of the Jedi when Luke shows up better trained more confident and able to hold his own against Vader it wasn't that much of stretch to think Luke spent time learning more about the Force and being a Jedi.

Whereas Rey went from some desert rat with no knowledge of the Force to lifting alot of rocks and boulders by the end of the second movie. And in time between those two movies maybe a week has passed.

Hell Luke had bare basic knowledge of the Force at the beginning of Empire and that was years after A New Hope.

[Winter]

I did think about another point about Luke from Empire. In that movie, Luke went to Dagobah looking for a famed Jedi Master and basically swept aside Yoda as some crazy local until Yoda switched from crazy local to Jedi Master. Between this and his training with Yoda and trying to lift his X Wing out of the swamp showed how much Luke had to go.

The whole movie was a set up for Luke to fail. And the thing is, in Return of the Jedi when Luke shows up better trained more confident and able to hold his own against Vader it wasn't that much of stretch to think Luke spent time learning more about the Force and being a Jedi.

Whereas Rey went from some desert rat with no knowledge of the Force to lifting alot of rocks and boulders by the end of the second movie. And in time between those two movies maybe a week has passed.

Hell Luke had bare basic knowledge of the Force at the beginning of Empire and that was years after A New Hope.

Heading over the left field for a moment in the Avatar Kyoshi novels it's a major plot point that Kyoshi is a gifted bender who can move literal mountains with little to no effort and yet has trouble moving the smallest pebble. Imagine if that was done with Rey, she's very skilled at the more amazing feats like lifting several large boulders with little to no effort but when it comes to more simple things she just can't pull it off.

Rey is powerful but she isn't as good in the smaller skills that Luke and Anakin picked up easily so she still needs to train to get her powers under control because, as shown, the more effort you put into the more powerful moves drains even the most seasoned Jedi. It's the difference between just swinging a sledge hammer around and being a skilled sword fighter.

And again, have Rey be a student of Luke BEFORE the events of the Trilogy so her powers don't come out of nowhere and she's an instant expert in them. You still get the "she's not related to anyone" idea AND "She did actually TRAIN to get these powers". BOTH Sides win in that situation, anyone can be a Jedi but you still need to train and can't just get the powers after learning you're the chosen one.

[McAvoy]

Interesting idea. Combine that with her on the edge of the Dark Side like that one scene in Rise of Skywalker, she got angry/frustrated when using Force Pull that turned into Force Lightning.

I still think she should have been just merely Force sensitive and not particularly special and of course a no body. Not every main character who is Force sensitive has to be the most powerful ever.

I also still think Ben Solo should have been a Jedi in Force Awakens and then is captured and then tortured turning him into the Dark Side. Ben and Rey knowing each other too. It would help between the two for the trilogy.

Hell you could tie in Kylo Rens tantrums as him fighting himself. Kylo Ren versus Ben Solo.

[Winter]

I also still think Ben Solo should have been a Jedi in Force Awakens and then is captured and then tortured turning him into the Dark Side. Ben and Rey knowing each other too. It would help between the two for the trilogy.

I had a similar idea, in another version the Jedi Order was never destroyed and the villain has a Anakin like fall to the dark side but one that is more in line with Sephiroth's from Final Fantasy 7. In this story the main focus is still Kira in the version where she was a former Storm Trooper turned rebel hero turned Jedi and one of the major characters is this REALLY OP Jedi who is first introduced by destroying a AT-ST in Two Hits and a few moments before that it took everything Ben and Jaina had to destroy one.

Like with Sephiroth this Jedi is a veteran who has been in the Order for 20+ years now but is willing to bend or break the rules when it comes to his own personal interest. As with Sephiroth we see hints of the darkness within him but for the first film he is on the side of the heroes. The second film is where he falls but that's saved for the climax of the film.

After learning something about himself the Jedi is driven mad and he goes on a killing spree and cuts through Ben, Jaina, Kira and her former Sith friend/implied love interest from when she was working with the Empire to take him down and even then he still survives and the heroes and the Sith are all seriously wounded. Kira loses an arm and a leg and was stabbed through the gut with a lightsaber and ends up in a coma and Ben and Jaina's injuries also put them in a coma too. The only one who was still left standing was the Sith and even she is going to need time to recover.

I would also just make this a 4 part story instead of a Trilogy because there REALLY isn't any reason to make this a Trilogy besides that the fact that the films before it were also Trilogies. Lucas wrote himself into a corner when he labeled Empire Ep. 5 so the Prequel Trilogy HAD to be a Trilogy and the original Trilogy was a Trilogy because Lucas just wanted to end the series. Disney had no such excuse, they didn't need to make it a Trilogy they only did it because Lucas did it with his Trilogies which is an really dumb reason to do so.

So, for this story we have Kira starting out as a Storm Trooper and joining the heroes at the end of her first film. Second film has the Jedi ally fall to the Dark Side. Third film is all about the fight between the Rebellion and Empire which ends in a stalemate leaving both sides severally weakened and the Fourth and final film is about both sides uniting to take down the fallen Jedi and making peace with each other.

There, basic plot for four films that took me 5 minutes to come up with and everything that fans of TDST liked can still be included. Rey/Kira being a nobody, irredeemable villain, questioning the nature of the Jedi and Sith along with the Force itself and the hero and villain having a more complex relationship. Everything fans of TDST enjoyed is here but done in such a way to hopefully get those who weren't on board for said ideas to at least find them interesting.

This could be done as it's what happened with the She-Ra reboot and that is a series LOVED by critics and viewers alike, there's no reason Star Wars can't be the same.