TOS: Patterns of Force

[CharlesPhipps]

Wait, space travel and nukes? Gill was basing his society on these Nazis all along!

It's a weird dodge but I like how the Nazis win only because the actual geniuses are the people they hate and call inferior.

If you're going to do Nazis win WW2 then that's at least the way to do it. No way they could it themselves.

It's the same way the Confederacy wins the Civil War....ALIENS!

[Antiboyscout]

Wait, space travel and nukes? Gill was basing his society on these Nazis all along!

It's a weird dodge but I like how the Nazis win only because the actual geniuses are the people they hate and call inferior.

If you're going to do Nazis win WW2 then that's at least the way to do it. No way they could it themselves.

It's the same way the Confederacy wins the Civil War....ALIENS!

Or the Harry Turtledove alt-history

[Rodan56]

Does this really defeat the show's message? I really think the efficiency element is utterly irrelevant.

John Gill believes it.

Except, he's WRONG.

Grossly, irredeemably, completely wrong.

It doesn't, just general oberservation of media surrounding depictions of Nazis and their ideology. I don't hold it against the episode, should've made that clear.

The Nazis won in Wolfenstein because they stole Jewish wizards' super-science that included nukes, cloning, space travel and robots.

Yes, that's what happened in Machine Games' terrible reboot. And every single thing about that sentence, the Dat'Yichud as a secret society and how it leads to the world we see in NO and NC is fucking stupid beyond belief. The Dat'Yichud themselves exist as a terribly contrived, lazy Deus Ex Machina to prop this entire idiotic premise up on flimsy foundations. And worse yet, by the sequel, it is revealed they only exist and the war lasted past 1945 when it should've ended with an A-Bomb on Berlin because the morons in charge of development wanted to insert a stupid excuse to involve Roswell and Area 51 into their idiotic storyline. And remove the aliens from any of that at the same time because why make this even the least bit interesting or cool? We've already stuck BJ with a terribly bland personality and ripped out all the cool integral to the lore supernatural stuff, why deviate from making this an even more boring version of CoD now?

The reason I brought all that other stuff up in relation to that game is because it makes the same mistake as Gill did. It tells us the Nazis are bad, but also makes the fucked up claim that with them in charge we'd already have colonies on the moon when that is just plain idiotic.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think rule 10 of the Nazi playbook is eugenics. It's a socialist outline that follows in the doctrine of the value of what you produce is what you earn. The directly proceeding rule involves abolition of unearned income and investment finances.

[CmdrKing]

I don't think rule 10 of the Nazi playbook is eugenics. It's a socialist outline that follows in the doctrine of the value of what you produce is what you earn. The directly proceeding rule involves abolition of unearned income and investment finances.

It’s a societal outline which specifically defines citizens by their capacity to produce for the state... which formed a society which historically, demonstrably did murder people for having congenital disorders.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think rule 10 of the Nazi playbook is eugenics. It's a socialist outline that follows in the doctrine of the value of what you produce is what you earn. The directly proceeding rule involves abolition of unearned income and investment finances.

It’s a societal outline which specifically defines citizens by their capacity to produce for the state... which formed a society which historically, demonstrably did murder people for having congenital disorders.

Meh, yeah. The overall outlook on eugenics in Nazi Germany falls in line with that. I was inclined to defer to his faux socialist campaign that led to them being called Nazis despite never personally adopting the term, but these were straight institutional measures, even if carried out in secret as I'm reading.

[SMAXZO]

Wait..they hated Zeon? So does that make the Nazis....the Earth Federation?

[CharlesPhipps]

Yes, that's what happened in Machine Games' terrible reboot. And every single thing about that sentence, the Dat'Yichud as a secret society and how it leads to the world we see in NO and NC is fucking stupid beyond belief. The Dat'Yichud themselves exist as a terribly contrived, lazy Deus Ex Machina to prop this entire idiotic premise up on flimsy foundations. And worse yet, by the sequel, it is revealed they only exist and the war lasted past 1945 when it should've ended with an A-Bomb on Berlin because the morons in charge of development wanted to insert a stupid excuse to involve Roswell and Area 51 into their idiotic storyline. And remove the aliens from any of that at the same time because why make this even the least bit interesting or cool? We've already stuck BJ with a terribly bland personality and ripped out all the cool integral to the lore supernatural stuff, why deviate from making this an even more boring version of CoD now?

If you don't like an an alternate history game about Nazis winning then that's your business but I think the solution to your response is, "Don't buy the game."

The reason I brought all that other stuff up in relation to that game is because it makes the same mistake as Gill did. It tells us the Nazis are bad, but also makes the fucked up claim that with them in charge we'd already have colonies on the moon when that is just plain idiotic.

I remind you Gill is a literal alien with 400 years of technology on his PDA.

Honestly, the thing I hoped from this thread were two things:

1. We could not get bogged down in RL Nazism discussion

2. The whole "efficient government" thing didn't dominate the discussion

[Rodan56]

If you don't like an an alternate history game about Nazis winning then that's your business but I think the solution to your response is, "Don't buy the game."

The "don't buy the game" response does not override all criticism.

I didn't hate alt-history before Wolfenstein: The New Order. New Order made me dislike Alt-history simply by how abjectly lazy it had revealed itself to be. I was hoping New Order would put an interesting take on the genre through Wolfenstein's unique pulpy serial lens. Instead it fell into the typical cliches and damaged the series lore to a point that my only means of salvaging the series in my eyes was to consider the new games a reboot wholly unconnected to anything involving the previous games in the series.

I'm an old fan of the Wolfenstein series. I loved them. So when New Order came out I was very quick to decide I'd love it too and pre-ordered it. I actually bothered to play the game the whole way through, earn every achievement, and the more time I played the less I liked it. So my criticism comes from a place of actually expericing the game and understanding the series beforehand.

I remind you Gill is a literal alien with 400 years of technology on his PDA.

Honestly, the thing I hoped from this thread were two things:

1. We could not get bogged down in RL Nazism discussion

2. The whole "efficient government" thing didn't dominate the discussion

What does any of that have to do with my argument that Wolfenstein the New Order is holding onto a stupid idea that has been disproven over time? Nothing I said was a knock against the episode, just the concept of how media has held onto this belief the Nazis were efficient. As for what dominates or doesn't dominate a discussion, sorry, but that's how it rolls. When a specific topic is brought up in the coda of a review, it tends to dominate it.

[CharlesPhipps]

Wolfenstein is a game that depends on the Nazis winning.

It's not about whether's it's realistic. It's a game that shows the Nazis are inefficient, murderous, and are ruining the world. It illustrates what a nightmarish clusterfuck life under the Nazis are and villifies them as realistically as life under Nazis would be.

I don't see why it's problematic to have them succeed if it means that you can spend the rest of the game horrifying players with how horrible they are.

It's very good to remove any sympathy or apologia for Nazis.