My Biggest Issue with Captain America: Civil War

[Winter]

Captain America: Civil War is easily my favorite film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's the Empire Strikes Back of the MCU for me due to the film puts more emphases on character with world shacking events put on hold. I see it as what Avengers 2 should have been AND the real finally of Phase 2 of the MCU given how it wraps up most of the major plot points of Phase 2. I love this film, I truly do... However.

Zemo's plan is overly complicated and depends WAAAY to much on chance and dump luck. I've seen some fans try to defend said plan and point out how it's not complicated and every single one I've seen only proves how overly complicated it is. If it takes more then a few seconds to try and justify how a plan is not complicated it's complicated plan.

Case in point, because again I love this series, in She-Ra's 4th season Catra makes a plan to invade one of the kingdoms. She does this by planting a shapeshifting spy in the Rebellions ranks to cause distrust in the ranks of the heroes long enough to keep the bulk of the rebellion's army in one place to invade the kingdom in question.

This plan is simple and doesn't depend on luck and chance to work. Again, I love CACW and if this convoluted plan was the price to get this awesome film than that's a fair trade. But again, I feel it's important to point out the flaws of things we love so those flaws have less room to entire future titles. I've not seen The Falcon and the Winter Solider yet but I do plan to once the first season is over so I don't know if Zemo's plans are still as convoluted as it was in CACW but as long as the show as a whole is fun I'm willing to overlook that again if I get a fun story out of it.

[CharlesPhipps]

I don't think Zemo's plan is remotely complicated because it's just, "Frame the Winter Soldier and eventually reveal that he killed Tony's parents." The thing about that is that nothing else NEEDS to happen because Zemo can do stage 2# at any time.

[Winter]

I don't think Zemo's plan is remotely complicated because it's just, "Frame the Winter Soldier and eventually reveal that he killed Tony's parents." The thing about that is that nothing else NEEDS to happen because Zemo can do stage 2# at any time.

Those are the goals of the plan and their are simple and easy to understand. The Plan is overly complicated and raises to many questions.

How did Zemo know where Bucky was going to be as even Steve and Sam didn't know and they had the resources of the Avengers along with any and all remnants of Shield? How did Zemo know that Tony would show up WITHOUT any backup? He clearly knew what he was going to find but his plan pretty much required that only Tony, Steve and Bucky be present? Zemo's whole plan is for the Avengers to tear themselves apart but this plan only works to turn TWO members of the Avengers apart. Sure, the Avengers DID breakup but that had nothing to do with Zemo and the Accords was something Zemo had NOTHING to do with yet his plan basically resolves around the accords so how was he planning on destroying the Avengers when said plan only would work on two?

How did Zemo know Bucky would be taken in alive, who would examine him and where he would be taken? This is the Key to his whole plan on destroying the Avengers, frame Bucky but because he was framed for the bombing the orders were for him to be killed, NOT arrested.

And the reason this bugs me is because the film frames it as Zemo PLANNING all this. He knew where to go and what to do for this all to work. He knew who would examine Bucky and had prepared a Mission: Impossible Mask just to take his place. He knew Bucky would be taken in alive and he knew only Tony, Steven and Bucky would show up.

Again, with She-Ra, Catra's plan is plant a spy, have them cause trouble and keep them in one location long enough to invade Salineas while the heroes fight among themselves, and move on. Everything Catra knows is a result of the information Double Trouble, the spy, is telling her while they, (Double Trouble) keep the Rebellion distracted.

But again, this doesn't bug me because unlike, say, Lex Luthor's plan in Batman v Superman Zemo's motivation is at least easy to understand. He wants revenge for the death of his family and blames the Avengers and wants to destroy them. Luthor wants to destroy Superman because... he all good and all powerful so he must be bad...?

I find Zemo's plan to be overly complicated but I can roll with the punches so long as I get why he's doing what he's doing AND as long as everything else isn't as complicated. Which it isn't. Tony and Steve's plans are simple and straight forward, as are the goals that drive them. Everyone acts like a intelligent human-being and while Zemo's has read the script no one acts like an idiot to make his plan work.

[Nealithi]

Betting on Tony Stark to go off half cocked is not exactly a risky bet.
Look at the mission on Bucky. If he escapes there is a man hunt. Get the tapes and mail them to Tony. Tony is out for blood and Steve is against him. Avengers take sides.
Bucky is captured. He has a plan to get in and activate the Winter Soldier program so he goes berserk and makes people believe he is a monster. See the movie as to results there.
Bucky is killed. Steve is mourning yet another lost friend. Tony gets the tapes. Friction drives them apart.

Any way you split that Zemo comes out ahead. One and two are his best results though.

[Winter]

Betting on Tony Stark to go off half cocked is not exactly a risky bet.
Look at the mission on Bucky. If he escapes there is a man hunt. Get the tapes and mail them to Tony. Tony is out for blood and Steve is against him. Avengers take sides.
Bucky is captured. He has a plan to get in and activate the Winter Soldier program so he goes berserk and makes people believe he is a monster. See the movie as to results there.
Bucky is killed. Steve is mourning yet another lost friend. Tony gets the tapes. Friction drives them apart.

Any way you split that Zemo comes out ahead. One and two are his best results though.

Then why not go to the super soldiers base first and retrieve the tape he needed first and THEN go and leak that information online? He already bombed one place he could do it again, frame Bucky again and then post that information online. He already knew where to go thanks to decoding the Hydra book so why bother with the prison break and again, how did he know who to go to so he could get close to Bucky?

Again, my issue isn't Zemo's plan it's how he pulls it off as most of said plan pretty much depends on the Avengers already being at odds with one another. Remember, Zemo found the Hydra agent before the Accords issue came up so he had to have had this plan already set up even though at the time the Avengers were completely okay with each other.

Tony has rushed into situations half cocked but he's not stupid. He already knew how dangerous the Super Soldiers were and would have no doubt just called in the other Avengers to get their help. But he didn't because half of them are in prison and the ones on his side are in the hospital and the other is emotionally unfit to help him because he's why Roddy is in the hospital. One already turned on him and is now on the run from the law and the other is a kid who he just sent home because he realized that bringing in a kid into a superhero conflict was a really REALLY stupid idea.

And the only reason Steve doesn't have his side of the Avengers is because they're the ones who are in prison. And again, Zemo is framed as having planned for this but he could only have known it through writer's clairvoyance.

[Zatman]

I think it all hinges on Steve not telling Tony that Bucky killed his parents. Which really is a gamble by Zemo unless he knew for fact that Steve hadn't. Frankly, Steve not telling Tony is a bit out of character for him. It's not completely unrealistic, we all do things "out of character" from time to time and it's not unreasonable to expect heroes to be the same.

[Nealithi]

Then why not go to the super soldiers base first and retrieve the tape he needed first and THEN go and leak that information online? He already bombed one place he could do it again, frame Bucky again and then post that information online. He already knew where to go thanks to decoding the Hydra book so why bother with the prison break and again, how did he know who to go to so he could get close to Bucky?

Again, my issue isn't Zemo's plan it's how he pulls it off as most of said plan pretty much depends on the Avengers already being at odds with one another. Remember, Zemo found the Hydra agent before the Accords issue came up so he had to have had this plan already set up even though at the time the Avengers were completely okay with each other.

Tony has rushed into situations half cocked but he's not stupid. He already knew how dangerous the Super Soldiers were and would have no doubt just called in the other Avengers to get their help. But he didn't because half of them are in prison and the ones on his side are in the hospital and the other is emotionally unfit to help him because he's why Roddy is in the hospital. One already turned on him and is now on the run from the law and the other is a kid who he just sent home because he realized that bringing in a kid into a superhero conflict was a really REALLY stupid idea.

And the only reason Steve doesn't have his side of the Avengers is because they're the ones who are in prison. And again, Zemo is framed as having planned for this but he could only have known it through writer's clairvoyance.

I can't say on the first part. Except he was watching news coverage so he may have needed to hit the UN assembly concerning the Avengers to stir up the right froth.

But I argue against Tony calling the Avengers. First the entire third Ironman movie. He could have but never does call for help. And in this movie with a super soldier going nuts he put on a glove to take him on. Out of his armor Tony is the weakest Avenger. Glove cool? Yes. Take on a super soldier cool? Nope.

I am also not saying his plan worked better than it should have. Black Panther anyone?
But the basics do seem solid enough to function.

[Winter]

But I argue against Tony calling the Avengers. First the entire third Ironman movie. He could have but never does call for help. And in this movie with a super soldier going nuts he put on a glove to take him on. Out of his armor Tony is the weakest Avenger. Glove cool? Yes. Take on a super soldier cool? Nope.

Except, Tony Did have back up. Right before going up to Bucky we hear Natasha over the radio saying "We're in position" right before Tony goes up to Bucky. This suggest that Tony was going in to try and soften Bucky up for the people who could actually fight. As Tony said in Iron Man 3, "That's the thing about Smart guys. We always cover our @$$." And he Did have help in IM3, he has help from Jarvis, Pepper, Roddy and even the kid helps him out. The only time he truly works on his own is when he infiltrates the "Mandarin's" mansion and there he goes in with pretty low tech and he only does that because his suit isn't powered up yet.

And in regards to Phase 2 as a whole, the heroes found themselves in situations where they couldn't call for help. Tony and Steve had to go undercover with little to no means of communication and Thor was even on Earth for most of the Dark World and by the time the final battle roles around it could be argued that they DID call in the others but they were to faraway to help. But that's just a head canon as there's nothing in the films to back this up and it always bugged me.

Again, most of the other characters are making smart choices instead of being stupid because the script said so. And again, I'm okay with this as it's better then Luthor "I know everything and everyone becomes stupid to make my plans work" we got in BVS. And as always, if you don't agree with me, that's fine this is just my opinion. I see Zemo's plan as overly complicated and feel that it relies on him knowing things he shouldn't.

It's completely in character for Tony to attack Bucky after what he learned, it's completely in character for Steve to try and protect Bucky from Tony and it's painful as Hell to watch two characters I love fighting each other which is why it's so powerful. Is Zemo's plan convoluted? I think so, yes. Does it matter if it leads to a good story? Hell no!

[Nealithi]

Yeah the thing about Bucky is, standing on the outside I see the good man that was controlled to do something he would not have done himself. I can feel Steve trying to protect his friend.
But yeah, if he killed my mom. I would be right in the same place as Tony.