TOS: A Taste of Armageddon

[Rocketboy1313]

Why? See, I was always curious why Kirk just left the Nazi regime in power. And what would Picard think about this? If the Ekosians effectively qualify to be members of the Federation on paper, but remain fascists, does Picard refuse to even entertain the notion of their admittance? That would be an interesting episode.

No it wouldn't.

Fascism on its face would disqualify a planet from admittance.
I know we don't get too many deep dives on the culture of individual Federation worlds, but if the existence of a caste system on Bajor would have DQ's them (which they mention in "Accession") there is no way a Nazi regime with the markings and all would be up for admittance.

It is a stupid suggestion on its face.

[Dînadan]

Why? See, I was always curious why Kirk just left the Nazi regime in power.

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that back in the 60s there was a train of thought that the Nazis were highly efficient or some such and that if you stripped away the bigotry and xenophobia and all the other negative aspects it'd leave a model system; in the episode in question this was what the character who set up the Nazi planet believed, hence why he did it. If it's true that that was the current thinking in the 60s, then that explains why Kirk left the Nazi regime in place, as he was written thinking the same thing.


Edit: taken from Memory Alpha

The episode's thesis, which Gill espoused and which Spock corroborated, was that Germany, and especially Nazi Germany, was the "most efficient" state ever known in Earth history. This was a popular notion in 1960s America, but contemporary historians disputed it; William Shirer, in particular, noted that nearly every Nazi official was a bitter enemy of nearly every other, and that their jurisdictions often overlapped and/or collided, both of which factors actually reduced or even, in some cases, completely negated governmental efficiency.

[Durandal_1707]

Take Patterns of Force, for example: In that episode, Kirk does not really end the Nazi regime; he just ends up removing Malakon's plans for an invasion of Zeon, their nearby neighbor. How interesting would it have been for Picard and the Enterprise-D to encounter a primitive but warp-driven starship 80 years later with a Nazi Swastika on it, asking for diplomatic contact to potentially join the Federation? What a great opening for an episode that would've made.

Ugh, just no.

Why? See, I was always curious why Kirk just left the Nazi regime in power. And what would Picard think about this? If the Ekosians effectively qualify to be members of the Federation on paper, but remain fascists, does Picard refuse to even entertain the notion of their admittance? That would be an interesting episode.

1. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" isn't a message we need right now.

2. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" wasn't a message we needed in 1968 either.

3. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" isn't a message we ever need. Keep your swastikas out of my space opera.

4. Infamously crappy episodes like these don't need sequels, especially ones that were just flimsy excuses to save money by going to the backlot. I don't need to see the Nazi planet or the Roman planet or the Halloween planet or the gangster planet again. I don't care what happened to Miri, the space hippies, the Gideons, the Kohms and the Yangs, Elaan of Troyius, the Friendly Angel, or any of those idiots that worshipped malfunctioning computers. I'm actually one of the few that finds "The Alternative Factor" kind of endearing in its utter weirdness, but that doesn't mean we need a sequel to it. If you need sequels, make sequels to the actually good episodes, or better yet, come up with something original.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think it's also a false question because Kirk didn't leave the Nazi regime in power but decapitated the government. He removed the equivalent of Heidrich Himmler and Hitler was killed.

I don't think we need to see Kirk leave a bunch of books explaining, "This is all based on my old history prof's stupid idea of how Nazi Germany wasn't a bunch of villains." However, I think we can assume he did his best (as he did in this episode) to make it clear this is all the result of cultural contamination and for once it's NOT a euphemism about how interaction with other cultures is bad.

Because it's generally assumed the government is broken by this point and will hopefuilly De-Nazify itself. If it doesn't, Civil War is probable and that (while awful) may still be better for the planet.

It's an extremely Anti-Nazi episode. The moral of the story being, "Fascism has an appeal but it inevitably turns into horrifying brutality and corruption."

I also remind you Nimoy and Shatner are Jewish so they thought they were showing it in a horrifying light--which they did.

[Admiral X]

Why? See, I was always curious why Kirk just left the Nazi regime in power.

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that back in the 60s there was a train of thought that the Nazis were highly efficient or some such and that if you stripped away the bigotry and xenophobia and all the other negative aspects it'd leave a model system; in the episode in question this was what the character who set up the Nazi planet believed, hence why he did it. If it's true that that was the current thinking in the 60s, then that explains why Kirk left the Nazi regime in place, as he was written thinking the same thing.


Edit: taken from Memory Alpha

The episode's thesis, which Gill espoused and which Spock corroborated, was that Germany, and especially Nazi Germany, was the "most efficient" state ever known in Earth history. This was a popular notion in 1960s America, but contemporary historians disputed it; William Shirer, in particular, noted that nearly every Nazi official was a bitter enemy of nearly every other, and that their jurisdictions often overlapped and/or collided, both of which factors actually reduced or even, in some cases, completely negated governmental efficiency.

And there's the whole thing about how authoritarian regimes are "more efficient" at "getting things done" because the great leader just goes ahead and does whatever they want because they don't have to worry about pesky little things like the actual will of the people, recognizing civil rights and all that jazz. Sorry, but even without the whole reactionary "OMG NAZIS!" aspect to it, "efficiency" is a pretty tough sell to justify a member of the Federation setting up a fascist regime, or to be something the Federation would overlook if they were applying for Federation membership. It sounds more like some dark secret the crew of the Enterprise-D would uncover in investigating the application, like that planet with the genetically-engineered super-soldiers it was hiding. Actually people have pointed out that Klingon values seem to be incompatible with the Federation's, which makes it pretty surprising that they had such a close alliance for so long before the Dominion came along and threw a wrench in it.

[Madner Kami]

History was viewed a little different back in the day and much of what made Nazi-Germany a terrible state in terms of efficiency or, really, sense in terms of a liveable community, wasn't known or realized at the time. All they saw was a state that came up from the worst economic depression imaginable and literally zero power and went straight out to almost conquer the world in less then a decade. On the surface, that seems like quite a feat and the technological progresses of that state were nothing to scoff at either. It's only contemporary historical research that relativates a lot of the successes (if you can call it that) made at the time. The great and mighty Tiger and Panther tanks? An economic and logistical nightmare that possibly actually undermined the war effort. Self-guided rockets (that directly lead to what brought the US to the moon, least to forget that), mass produced jet- and even rocket-airplanes, the mighty Bismarck that could only be brought down by the combined might of the entire british homefleet and so on, there's plenty mythos that falls apart only if you look at it closely, but that seems absolutely awe-inspiring on the surface. Or the mighty warmachine of the Wehrmacht, that turns out to be a bumbling incoherent mess of conflicting interests and opposing leadership-decissions between Luftwaffe, Heer and Kriegsmarine and so on and on.

A lot of these things were not public knowledge or even known at all at the time. Never forget that there's always a historical context that can be quite extremely different to what you consider common knowledge.

[MaxWylde]

Take Patterns of Force, for example: In that episode, Kirk does not really end the Nazi regime; he just ends up removing Malakon's plans for an invasion of Zeon, their nearby neighbor. How interesting would it have been for Picard and the Enterprise-D to encounter a primitive but warp-driven starship 80 years later with a Nazi Swastika on it, asking for diplomatic contact to potentially join the Federation? What a great opening for an episode that would've made.

Ugh, just no.

Why? See, I was always curious why Kirk just left the Nazi regime in power. And what would Picard think about this? If the Ekosians effectively qualify to be members of the Federation on paper, but remain fascists, does Picard refuse to even entertain the notion of their admittance? That would be an interesting episode.

1. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" isn't a message we need right now.

2. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" wasn't a message we needed in 1968 either.

3. "Look, Nazis are good guys after all!" isn't a message we ever need. Keep your swastikas out of my space opera.

4. Infamously crappy episodes like these don't need sequels, especially ones that were just flimsy excuses to save money by going to the backlot. I don't need to see the Nazi planet or the Roman planet or the Halloween planet or the gangster planet again. I don't care what happened to Miri, the space hippies, the Gideons, the Kohms and the Yangs, Elaan of Troyius, the Friendly Angel, or any of those idiots that worshipped malfunctioning computers. I'm actually one of the few that finds "The Alternative Factor" kind of endearing in its utter weirdness, but that doesn't mean we need a sequel to it. If you need sequels, make sequels to the actually good episodes, or better yet, come up with something original.

But, they opened the door for it. Didn't they? Or, can't your brain handle a little challenge? I'm not saying accept it, but you HAVE TO FUCKING KNOW THE REASONS WHY YOU REJECT IT. And it can't just be simple anti-semitism, because if that's the case, then you fail to understand the whole point. Why would Picard reject their application?

[Rocketboy1313]

But, they opened the door for it. Didn't they? Or, can't your brain handle a little challenge? I'm not saying accept it, but you HAVE TO FUCKING KNOW THE REASONS WHY YOU REJECT IT. And it can't just be simple anti-semitism, because if that's the case, then you fail to understand the whole point. Why would Picard reject their application?

I already answered that with:

Fascism on its face would disqualify a planet from admittance to the Federation.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

[GandALF]

But, they opened the door for it. Didn't they? Or, can't your brain handle a little challenge? I'm not saying accept it, but you HAVE TO FUCKING KNOW THE REASONS WHY YOU REJECT IT. And it can't just be simple anti-semitism, because if that's the case, then you fail to understand the whole point. Why would Picard reject their application?

If they remained fascist then they wouldn't apply in first place, they would be hostile to it like the Cardassians and the Romulans

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

If you distill the idea to its most basic conceptual level, I see two basic story possibilities- the old ends vs. means debate, or just how tolerant and/or accepting you ought to be of morally dubious (or repugnant) groups. Trek has already dealt with both of those questions in one way or another. I think bringing up actual space nazis is pretty cheap, literally in terms of saving money on production and story-wise.

As far as this story's historical accuracy, or lack thereof, this line about John Gill tells you all you need to know-

What impressed me most was his treatment of Earth history as causes and motivations rather than dates and events.

That's 5th-6th grade history. Spock being impressed by that really takes you out of the story. I do get some enjoyment out of Patterns of Force, but its take on history is remarkably unsophisticated.