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clearspira wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:51 amAnd the bit about how every one of them since WW2 is against brown people.
I'm not getting at the US though. Far be for me as a Brit to moan about warring against brown people given what we did in Africa lol.
Oh yeah, the intervention in the Balkans against Serbia, totally against "brown people" - oh wait.
Maybe it's because the US (and Britain back in the day) liked to intervene and maintain their hegemony where ever it is/was disrupted and that often didn't involve Europe and other nations. With that said, Britain sure didn't limit themselves to it as the Afrikaaners found out. Russia realized it too when Britain fought a war against them to keep the Ottoman Empire from collapsing.
It's always hard to take the "brown people" insinuations seriously when it seems to dominate some people's minds so much to always be at the ready to be thrown out. It gives the impression that their own mindset is framed by a similar racist point of view they are insinuating at, that they only see people in such countries in that way.
clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:21 pmWhat was the point of the last twenty years again?
The Barbary Coast for centuries is a good example of what Afghanistan is. Placed along important trade lines, the Corsairs plundered and slave raided for centuries either being bought off or bombarded into temporary agreements. Nothing more could be done because the Mahgreb is a worthless tract of land not worth conquering until the French finally decided it was worth doing so and did the job with enough force to to it properly.
Afghanistan is similarly worthless and unoccupiable. This should have been a razzia to make a point and get out until they made enough trouble again to warrant another raid. That or the US should have come in with the intent to stay to at least occupy the place and forcefully raise a generation acceptable to American hegemony, but we all know that wouldn't be done.
The main problem in Iraq and Afghanistan was that the US tried to do to them what they'd done to Germany and Japan after WWII but had neither the money to spend nor the heart to actually do the bloody job.
Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:27 pm
The war is over, we lost and it's getting increasingly hard to justify when the new recruits weren't even born when 9/11 happened.
This isn't over. It's a long war like the Indian Wars and will be going on for a century at the very least.
It's gone too long as it is and needs to end.
It's only been twenty years. This stage, and these wars, can be done, but the matter isn't over.
Think of the Hundred Years' War and how it wasn't hundred years of constant warfare but of three separate phases.
You don't like it? Well none of us do, but 9/11 was a big slap in our faces reminding us that the end of history hasn't come yet. Nasty, drawn out wars wars have been the norm, not the exception in history.
I know I was in college when 9/11 happened, I was at a store on the local military base when Bush announced they were sending the troops, I watched over half my town disappear when the marines were sent (it was a military town)
Beastro wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:21 pm
It's only been twenty years. This stage, and these wars, can be done, but the matter isn't over.
Think of the Hundred Years' War and how it wasn't hundred years of constant warfare but of three separate phases.
You don't like it? Well none of us do, but 9/11 was a big slap in our faces reminding us that the end of history hasn't come yet. Nasty, drawn out wars wars have been the norm, not the exception in history.
Counterpoint
-> The French left Vietnam after ~10 years of war. The matter was over for France.
-> The United States left Vietnam ~18 years of war. The matter was over for the US.
-> The British left Cyprus after ~5 years of conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The British left Mandatory Palestine after 25 years of intermittent conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The Russians left Afghanistan after ~10 years of conflict. The matter was over for Russia.
Imperial powers can leave a country and proceed to forget about the war.
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Beastro wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:21 pm
It's only been twenty years. This stage, and these wars, can be done, but the matter isn't over.
Think of the Hundred Years' War and how it wasn't hundred years of constant warfare but of three separate phases.
You don't like it? Well none of us do, but 9/11 was a big slap in our faces reminding us that the end of history hasn't come yet. Nasty, drawn out wars wars have been the norm, not the exception in history.
Counterpoint
-> The French left Vietnam after ~10 years of war. The matter was over for France.
-> The United States left Vietnam ~18 years of war. The matter was over for the US.
-> The British left Cyprus after ~5 years of conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The British left Mandatory Palestine after 25 years of intermittent conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The Russians left Afghanistan after ~10 years of conflict. The matter was over for Russia.
Imperial powers can leave a country and proceed to forget about the war.
And the Taliban will re-cement rule, allow a safe harbour for further attacks on the West until they become troublesome again, just as the Corsairs would agree to stop taking Westerners slaves until they got bold enough to try again. If it's not the Taliban it'll be some other group.
This isn't a simple matter of Afghanistan but of of the issues between Islam and the West and the underpinnings around Modernity as to why the two towers were focused upon and repeatedly attacked until they fell. One aspect is US hegemony, which is in flux, the other is fundamental disappointments and rejection over Modernity in the Islamic world. That might either go with the defeat of Islamists in the same way the resistant Indian tribes succumb to the spread of the US across North America, or it may change currents in West civilization do as Westerners increasingly have Modernity bleed out of them as American culture conflicts of the past few decades reveal.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:18 am
The best thing the US and her allies to just monitor the situation and this time around take threats seriously.
Let the Middle East sort itself out.
I would agree that we should let the Middle East sort itself out if half of its problems were not directly caused by us.
Beastro wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:21 pm
It's only been twenty years. This stage, and these wars, can be done, but the matter isn't over.
Think of the Hundred Years' War and how it wasn't hundred years of constant warfare but of three separate phases.
You don't like it? Well none of us do, but 9/11 was a big slap in our faces reminding us that the end of history hasn't come yet. Nasty, drawn out wars wars have been the norm, not the exception in history.
Counterpoint
-> The French left Vietnam after ~10 years of war. The matter was over for France.
-> The United States left Vietnam ~18 years of war. The matter was over for the US.
-> The British left Cyprus after ~5 years of conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The British left Mandatory Palestine after 25 years of intermittent conflict. The matter was over for Britain.
-> The Russians left Afghanistan after ~10 years of conflict. The matter was over for Russia.
Imperial powers can leave a country and proceed to forget about the war.
Truth, but it is kind of sick when you think about it. Especially when those countries then proceed to brag about how peaceful and noble they are.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:18 am
The best thing the US and her allies to just monitor the situation and this time around take threats seriously.
Let the Middle East sort itself out.
I would agree that we should let the Middle East sort itself out if half of its problems were not directly caused by us.
I'd say that's a conservative estimate, but yeah. >.o
The sad thing is, thanks to the military-industrial complex, the US being involved in endless wars isn't a bug, it's a feature.
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McAvoy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:18 am
The best thing the US and her allies to just monitor the situation and this time around take threats seriously.
Let the Middle East sort itself out.
I would agree that we should let the Middle East sort itself out if half of its problems were not directly caused by us.
Then we'd still be occupying most of South America and decent sections of South-East Asia.
