TNG - The Masterpiece Society

[Sir Will]

"This is just a thing. Things can be replaced. Lives cannot."

Is this true in a society that genegineers and (possibly) clones it's citizens to such a degree? I feel each "individual" would be very much replacable, as they could literally tailor-remake their society back into existence, as long as the technology and philosophy continue to exist.

Rome fell to the barbarians and yet there is still a Rome. Athens fell to the Romans and yet there is still an Athens. Egypt fell to the Romans and yet there is still Egypt. When this colony fell however, it fell completely. As Chuck noted, the problem wasn't the concept, the problem was that they are stagnant and short-sighted. So yeah, they could settle somewhere else. But that colony is probably just as doomed.

The closest historical precedent I can think of is Sparta. A city-state so ruled by inflexible conservatism that when presented with clear evidence that they were dying off as a people they couldn't conceive of any other way of life but their own.

The concept is the problem. Chuck said as much. It's doomed to fail. It can't last. Something will always happen that will disrupt it, it's only a matter of time. And being this controlling will lead to stagnation in many areas.

[RobbyB1982]

I would hate to be a child in that society. Imagine, you're in school, growing up with your friends and classmates. You discover that your best friend is supposed to be the future leader of the society, your brother is going to be one of the head engineers and there you are, getting your soul crushed as you discover that your future career is going to be cleaning the toilets and restocking the toilet paper and tampon dispensers, then you're told: "Oh, don't worry, you'll grow to love what you do." You tell your friends the bad news and the one who will be the future leader laughs, then purposely clogs the toilet and tells you that it's time to start on your grand career and plunge his crapper. Then as you grow up you discover that there is the perfect number of toilet cleaners in this perfect society, and it's just you. You have no peers, you have no coworkers, it's just you and your plunger and a society that claims to be perfect, but still chooses to indulge in "Taco Tuesday".

I think you're coming at this from the most pessimistic angle possible. For some folks, there IS a joy to be had in doing simple work you don't have to think about. About helping others. There IS nobility in being a garbageman or a janitor.

Yeah, it sucks to wipe poop off the floor, but you get the satisfaction of seeing something become clean, of making something work that didn't work.

People work as industrial cleaners at car manufacturing plants, and that boils down to mapping stuff up and wiping off robots and trying to make an environment sterile. But no one ever makes fun of, or insults, that job because its cleaning up after mechanics and helping cars work. Its treated with some respect because its *important*. But its still janitorial work. Meanwhile the janitor at a high school gets mocked as being a pathetic loser? It's the same job, just looked at differently.

Same with being a plumber or a construction worker or a dry wall installer. Basic grunt work with your hands. THere's no glamour or glory in it, but it fills your time, gets you paid, and there is satisfaction to be found in doing it.

Why is being a chef at a 5 star restaurant amazing, but being a fry cook at McDonalds an embrassing shame? Both jobs are about preparing food for others, but the amount of dignity given to that job by *others* is key. When the pandemic started, there was about a month where folks thanked grocery store workers and saluted them for doing an important service... and now we've gone back to treating them like crap.


If their *society* is geared up to treat every job as important and special, as the special thing that you're good at and born to have an aptitude for, there's no shame to it.

And its probably not like they're forcing people to exact specific job, just general environments. If you're born to an artistic mind, okay, you want to be a poet or a writer or painter or piano player, go for it. Same way it works for artists in the real world. They're not just immediately forcing citizens 500-976 to all be piano players... but encouraging them into artistic fields. So no one is going to be assigned "just do toilet duty", but probably general cleaning and utility. So yeah, they'll scrub toilets, but they'll ALSO get to fix plumbing and electric boxes and things that appeal to them within that job, that's the whole point.

[Deledrius]

I would hate to be a child in that society.

Except no, you wouldn't. That's entirely the point. You would love being what you are.

You're trying to apply you to a you that isn't you. It won't work.

[clearspira]

I would hate to be a child in that society.

Except no, you wouldn't. That's entirely the point. You would love being what you are.

You're trying to apply you to a you that isn't you. It won't work.

The implications of that are pure horror.
''And here are our cotton pickers - don't worry - they love it.''
''And here is my wife. Don't worry, she loves spending her days cleaning my house.''

[drewder]

I would hate to be a child in that society.

Except no, you wouldn't. That's entirely the point. You would love being what you are.

You're trying to apply you to a you that isn't you. It won't work.

The implications of that are pure horror.
''And here are our cotton pickers - don't worry - they love it.''
''And here is my wife. Don't worry, she loves spending her days cleaning my house.''

Except that they do love it.

[clearspira]

I would hate to be a child in that society.

Except no, you wouldn't. That's entirely the point. You would love being what you are.

You're trying to apply you to a you that isn't you. It won't work.

The implications of that are pure horror.
''And here are our cotton pickers - don't worry - they love it.''
''And here is my wife. Don't worry, she loves spending her days cleaning my house.''

Except that they do love it.

Its not slavery if your slaves enjoy what they're doing?
I'm reminded of the house elves in Harry Potter.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think there's a direct irony that if a society can't adapt and has failsafes, it is utterly doomed. Ironically, the issue has some direct RL parallels. One of the "Black Comedy" elements of history is that in India, when the Muslim armies invaded, the Indians basically said, "No one will ever convert to your religion! We are an ancient superior society where all know their place!"

And virtually the entirety of the Outcasts converted at once because it couldn't get worse and indeed, did get better.

Like the elves and the Qunari.

"Wait, we're equal in your weird religion?"

"Yes."

"Huh."

[zugabdu]

I HATE this episode. Not because it's the worst episode - it's far from being as bad as, say, Outrageous Okona. No, I hate this episode because it seems to combine a lot of TNG's worst tics into one awful package. Moral handwringing that doesn't make any sense? Check. An unsympathetic culture presented as a utopia? Check. A cringey romance? Check.

For me, an even bigger problem this episode has than the inflexibility of the society is that the episode trades on the assumption the audience sympathizes with the Moab colonists and their objectives. If you don't, the moral dilemma won't resonate with you and that's why I think a lot of people find this episode boring - for them (and me) nothing worthwhile was at stake here.

I would argue that Journey's End did a better job with the angle this episode was going for. In that case, you have the Enterprise put in the position of having to forcibly relocate Native American colonists from a planet. That will resonate with an audience familiar with and sensitive to a real life historical tragedy and cultural extermination. The episode isn't perfect, but there's something the audience will care about more than creepy, one-off eugenics planet.

[Mabus]

So a society that is specifically bred to fill in certain niches, is extremely protective of itself to the point of falling apart if its members flee (even though they could just breed other identical members in their place), but utterly fails when an outside problem appears? Sounds more like a cult than a civilization.

[CharlesPhipps]

So a society that is specifically bred to fill in certain niches, is extremely protective of itself to the point of falling apart if its members flee (even though they could just breed other identical members in their place), but utterly fails when an outside problem appears? Sounds more like a cult than a civilization.

Weird your mind went cult when mine went totalitarian dictatorship.

BTW, it's an isolationist eugenicist culture that has absolutely no freedom or acceptance of deviation. Is there ANY culture in Trek more antithetical to Federation values?