https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHvpWHM ... FDebrisRed
Well... to continue our discussion on ''how nonsense the holodeck frequently is'' from ''The Big Goodbye'' we have this episode where a frozen program also means that the flashlights and ray guns work.
And how do you actually make someone black and white?
And why is it that in ''First Contact'' you can materialise holo-clothes over a person and yet here Tom Paris has to put on the Captain Proton clothes before he goes in? (Although I always thought the ''First Contact'' idea was stupid for the reasons outlined excellently in RLM's review of the film).
Other than that, good episode. I like the Malon. They are more believably capitalist than the Ferengi. ''Yeah, we COULD stop polluting, but that would mean we go poor so screw that.'' There is a not so subtle oil industry aesop there.
VOY - Night
Re: VOY - Night
Strongly, strongly, STRONGLY disagree on Chuck here. This is an 8 or 9 for me; I frickin' LOVE this episode.
There are several things that buoy it up for me - the atmosphere for the first half in particular is a strong factor especially. You can SAY "everyone is bored, so we're bored, too" but the reality is that it's not just boredom, it's a form of psychological torture, exemplified most by Neelix and the Doctor. Neelix developed nihiliphobia to the point of panic attacks and the Doctor described how when he was shut off, he was in something of a void of experience and he just had to get used to it, but not everyone's going to be able to deal with it - and I suspect if they had spent too much more time in there, a few more months or a year, the crew would have gone insane. It's like the idea of solitary confinement, except in this case instead of having tasks to accomplish and new things to do and explore and distract you from the situation, you're just crushed by the nihilistic horror of it all. You're surrounded by people, but it's all the same because nothing is different enough and you grow sick of them without new stimulus. And while we don't fully go into that here, it's clear that things are on their way, to the point where even the disciplined Vulcan needed to go to astrometrics to see stars.
The next thing for me was Janeway - this was a great character episode for her, with the writers FINALLY willing to examine the actions of Caretaker in a negative light, not just by people who were angry with her and were either evil or ultimately came around to her way of thinking, but the leader finally having some self-doubt and self-reflection and saying "I made a decision that affected all your lives and it was self-serving and wrong. I put MY morality above all of your lives." And that led to her being willing to sacrifice herself so that her principles wouldn't strand the crew a second time, but this time all of THEM choosing to do what they felt was the right thing.
Hell, I think Neelix was actually handled overall okay in this one. I didn't find him particularly annoying and it was another time of him being sympathetic, not just because of nihiliphobia but trying to actually be helpful. Sure, his suggestions weren't the best, but it was more than anyone else was bringing to the table and his outburst was something we hadn't really seen in a bit - brought on not by him being a shithead, but because the pressure was getting to him. Plus the aforementioned early signs that things were going to hell.
As for holographic pilots and auto-timers for this? Ehhh, doubtful it's as simple as "set up a holoprojector and it's fine," otherwise they would have installed holoprojectors all over the ship for the Doctor earlier on, as suggested in the first 2 seasons. There's likely more to how holograms function that make it harder than that.
The conversation between Tuvok and Chakotay was great, too - I don't recall the two of them doing much interaction outside of a professional setting in the first few seasons and this was the first time to acknowledge that, plus it made good use of Tuvok's history with Janeway, something that wasn't used often outside of Tuvok being a confidante for her.
As for Star Trek phasers and the Captain Proton gun... ehhh, fair enough, though it could be a case of the Captain Proton gun not really having a stun setting - it's ALWAYS a killing weapon and the aliens, while resistant to a stun setting on a phaser, needed a little more oomph to take them down.
Basically, yeah, I friggin' love this one and is one of the few I'll revisit when I feel like watching Voyager. Sure, the aliens are underdeveloped and the ending is a little more prototypical after the atmospheric setup, but it's still a blast.
Plus, how can you ever go wrong with the scene between Seven and Satan's Robot?
There are several things that buoy it up for me - the atmosphere for the first half in particular is a strong factor especially. You can SAY "everyone is bored, so we're bored, too" but the reality is that it's not just boredom, it's a form of psychological torture, exemplified most by Neelix and the Doctor. Neelix developed nihiliphobia to the point of panic attacks and the Doctor described how when he was shut off, he was in something of a void of experience and he just had to get used to it, but not everyone's going to be able to deal with it - and I suspect if they had spent too much more time in there, a few more months or a year, the crew would have gone insane. It's like the idea of solitary confinement, except in this case instead of having tasks to accomplish and new things to do and explore and distract you from the situation, you're just crushed by the nihilistic horror of it all. You're surrounded by people, but it's all the same because nothing is different enough and you grow sick of them without new stimulus. And while we don't fully go into that here, it's clear that things are on their way, to the point where even the disciplined Vulcan needed to go to astrometrics to see stars.
The next thing for me was Janeway - this was a great character episode for her, with the writers FINALLY willing to examine the actions of Caretaker in a negative light, not just by people who were angry with her and were either evil or ultimately came around to her way of thinking, but the leader finally having some self-doubt and self-reflection and saying "I made a decision that affected all your lives and it was self-serving and wrong. I put MY morality above all of your lives." And that led to her being willing to sacrifice herself so that her principles wouldn't strand the crew a second time, but this time all of THEM choosing to do what they felt was the right thing.
Hell, I think Neelix was actually handled overall okay in this one. I didn't find him particularly annoying and it was another time of him being sympathetic, not just because of nihiliphobia but trying to actually be helpful. Sure, his suggestions weren't the best, but it was more than anyone else was bringing to the table and his outburst was something we hadn't really seen in a bit - brought on not by him being a shithead, but because the pressure was getting to him. Plus the aforementioned early signs that things were going to hell.
As for holographic pilots and auto-timers for this? Ehhh, doubtful it's as simple as "set up a holoprojector and it's fine," otherwise they would have installed holoprojectors all over the ship for the Doctor earlier on, as suggested in the first 2 seasons. There's likely more to how holograms function that make it harder than that.
The conversation between Tuvok and Chakotay was great, too - I don't recall the two of them doing much interaction outside of a professional setting in the first few seasons and this was the first time to acknowledge that, plus it made good use of Tuvok's history with Janeway, something that wasn't used often outside of Tuvok being a confidante for her.
As for Star Trek phasers and the Captain Proton gun... ehhh, fair enough, though it could be a case of the Captain Proton gun not really having a stun setting - it's ALWAYS a killing weapon and the aliens, while resistant to a stun setting on a phaser, needed a little more oomph to take them down.
Basically, yeah, I friggin' love this one and is one of the few I'll revisit when I feel like watching Voyager. Sure, the aliens are underdeveloped and the ending is a little more prototypical after the atmospheric setup, but it's still a blast.
Plus, how can you ever go wrong with the scene between Seven and Satan's Robot?
Re: VOY - Night
Neelix, worryingly, has a point in training people in other roles. Paris was dumped with being assistant nurse (as well as being the main pilot, commando, Most Interesting Man In The Room etc), so that meant that between him, the Doctor, and Kes, there were only 3 people who are trained in medicine (and from what I remember, they're the only people who can do medicine, at all). And with Kes gone (I don't remember if they ever got anyone to replace her in that role), in the middle of a battle, you're stuck with the Doctor, who, as competent as he is, is only one person. You can do a basic first aid course in less than a day. Why isn't it a prerequisite that if you're in space, let alone in Starfleet, you should at least know what a splint is?
They talk about bettering and improving themselves in their glorious future. They even spent an episode (Learning Curve as I remember) with Tuvok teaching former Marquis Starfleet standards. Training the crew in other tasks would be fantastic. Crew members learn new skills, can help provide cover if one of their colleagues is injured (or worse), they might even come up with ideas on how to get out of sticky situations. And they already have courses in their databases.
Get the Doctor to run a few courses on first aid in the holodeck. Tuvok teaching martial arts, combat drills. Carey on engineering (at least it gives him something to do). Neelix with his (cough) survival skills (again, why it seems no-one in Starfleet knows the basics in this is ludicrous, especially with the risk of being stranded on an alien planet). Hell, even Chakotay is meant to be an instructor in Advanced Tactical Training. It's better than them cosplaying all-day on the holodeck (I'm glaring at you Fair Haven).
They talk about bettering and improving themselves in their glorious future. They even spent an episode (Learning Curve as I remember) with Tuvok teaching former Marquis Starfleet standards. Training the crew in other tasks would be fantastic. Crew members learn new skills, can help provide cover if one of their colleagues is injured (or worse), they might even come up with ideas on how to get out of sticky situations. And they already have courses in their databases.
Get the Doctor to run a few courses on first aid in the holodeck. Tuvok teaching martial arts, combat drills. Carey on engineering (at least it gives him something to do). Neelix with his (cough) survival skills (again, why it seems no-one in Starfleet knows the basics in this is ludicrous, especially with the risk of being stranded on an alien planet). Hell, even Chakotay is meant to be an instructor in Advanced Tactical Training. It's better than them cosplaying all-day on the holodeck (I'm glaring at you Fair Haven).
Last edited by DanteC on Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: VOY - Night
I think the whole "Starfleet phasers are worse than holographic ray guns" can be chalked down to the aliens themselves being sensitive to "hologram energy", like how they live in total darkness, light can harm them, because holograms are made of light, so they ray gun affects them. Low phaser stun doesn't work but they're sensitive to holographic energy.
I do think that the whole Captain Planet villainy was unnecessary, as were the meatsuit aliens, I think them simply passing through the light void and having to deal with the tension of being stuck in a dark place would have been enough, maybe add some tension with more of the ship malfunctioning because of the whatever blocks outside light.
I do think that the whole Captain Planet villainy was unnecessary, as were the meatsuit aliens, I think them simply passing through the light void and having to deal with the tension of being stuck in a dark place would have been enough, maybe add some tension with more of the ship malfunctioning because of the whatever blocks outside light.
Re: VOY - Night
I agree with Linkara here, and disagree with Chuck. Night is one of my absolute favorite episodes. You can feel the atmosphere of the crew and their situation. They've been doing the same thing for 3 months, without end, and have another two years of this to look forward to, and the strain is starting to wear them out. Torres and Paris getting testy with each other, Neelix having panic attacks about the outside, Tuvok deciding to meditate in a semi-public place such as Astrometrics. It shows that they're dealing with what would really happen to crew if they weren't able to resupply, rest, or have constant attacks by someone like the Kazon to distract them from their situation. Tom poking B'elanna about her temper just to start an argument shows how boredom can lead to dangerous things. Even having Janeway considering her life choices was rather bold television, and helped set up what kind of direction the character is going over the next couple years with her wanting to get the crew home as fast as possible.
After that, with the initial showing of the Malons and the species that lives in the Void, I like the setup. Voyager runs across a society that they can help, and with the captain of the business even admitting that such a thing would be revolutionary for his world. But he's not going to do it, because it'd wipe out his business. While sure, he COULD be the ground floor in this new recyclable technology, it'd be cheaper and easier to just keep on dumping. Which is.....not as unrealistic as I'd like it to be.
I also enjoy the drama of seeing the Night alien begging Janeway with, "Will you help us?" Just like the Ocampa in Caretaker, she could ignore their plight and move on, or she could save them. And it was something done better than Caretaker, in which the alien is begging Janeway, and it ratchets up the tension, as opposed to the alien just dying and turning into a rock.
After that, with the initial showing of the Malons and the species that lives in the Void, I like the setup. Voyager runs across a society that they can help, and with the captain of the business even admitting that such a thing would be revolutionary for his world. But he's not going to do it, because it'd wipe out his business. While sure, he COULD be the ground floor in this new recyclable technology, it'd be cheaper and easier to just keep on dumping. Which is.....not as unrealistic as I'd like it to be.
I also enjoy the drama of seeing the Night alien begging Janeway with, "Will you help us?" Just like the Ocampa in Caretaker, she could ignore their plight and move on, or she could save them. And it was something done better than Caretaker, in which the alien is begging Janeway, and it ratchets up the tension, as opposed to the alien just dying and turning into a rock.
-
LordFeagans
- Redshirt
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:57 pm
Re: VOY - Night
I assume that when a holodeck is frozen, it's just the narrative and anything that is actively moving. A flashlight or raygun still working wouldn't be frozen.clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:16 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHvpWHM ... FDebrisRed
Well... to continue our discussion on ''how nonsense the holodeck frequently is'' from ''The Big Goodbye'' we have this episode where a frozen program also means that the flashlights and ray guns work.
And how do you actually make someone black and white?
And why is it that in ''First Contact'' you can materialise holo-clothes over a person and yet here Tom Paris has to put on the Captain Proton clothes before he goes in? (Although I always thought the ''First Contact'' idea was stupid for the reasons outlined excellently in RLM's review of the film).
Other than that, good episode. I like the Malon. They are more believably capitalist than the Ferengi. ''Yeah, we COULD stop polluting, but that would mean we go poor so screw that.'' There is a not so subtle oil industry aesop there.
-
LordFeagans
- Redshirt
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:57 pm
Re: VOY - Night
Given how the ship was in an area of space that had nothing, maybe this should have been a two parter episode, just to shake up the status quo.
Part One is like TNG "Family", character and no action. The crew is bored and you see them do less and less of their jobs and more and more screwing around. Tuvok tries to keep everyone doing their work, Janeway is in her ready room or quarters, depressed, saying "What's the point anymore?" Tom is in the holodeck playing Captain Proton, and Torres is being asked about expanding the holodeck into other parts of the ship because her boyfriend won't leave. The Doctor could be studying acting and working with Neelix to arrange a one may performance for the crew and demanding that Chakotay make his one man show mandatory for the crew to attend. Harry could be on the bridge, actually taking his job seriously in hopes that he will finally get that promotion to Lt J.G., only there is no one on the bridge to notice that he's the only one still working. The entire episode could be seen through Seven's eyes since she doesn't understand any of it, kind of like the episode "Data's Day". The episode worked around the idea that this could seriously be the situation for a while, not a quick be back in normal space at the end of the hour.
Kim could be following all the radiation emissions and discover the aliens and the Malons near the end of the episode, leading into part two, where part two is a more expanded version of the second half of this episode.
Part One is like TNG "Family", character and no action. The crew is bored and you see them do less and less of their jobs and more and more screwing around. Tuvok tries to keep everyone doing their work, Janeway is in her ready room or quarters, depressed, saying "What's the point anymore?" Tom is in the holodeck playing Captain Proton, and Torres is being asked about expanding the holodeck into other parts of the ship because her boyfriend won't leave. The Doctor could be studying acting and working with Neelix to arrange a one may performance for the crew and demanding that Chakotay make his one man show mandatory for the crew to attend. Harry could be on the bridge, actually taking his job seriously in hopes that he will finally get that promotion to Lt J.G., only there is no one on the bridge to notice that he's the only one still working. The entire episode could be seen through Seven's eyes since she doesn't understand any of it, kind of like the episode "Data's Day". The episode worked around the idea that this could seriously be the situation for a while, not a quick be back in normal space at the end of the hour.
Kim could be following all the radiation emissions and discover the aliens and the Malons near the end of the episode, leading into part two, where part two is a more expanded version of the second half of this episode.
Re: VOY - Night
i kinda agree with linkara i don't hate this episode as much -though id also agree with chuck that more should have been done with it -id say its more a 6 a bit above average. the thing i like is that janeway is showing her confidence is shaken and she is unsure. plus i like that people are showing signs of stress, which you would too if your stuck in the same place all the time. which is one reason we haven't gotten to other planets yet i think -we would go crazy very quickly
Re: VOY - Night
There's no good reason the computer couldn't generate multiple doctors if the situation required it other than the general nonsense of the Voyager writers.the Doctor, who, as competent as he is, is only one person
It's surprising that no one ever considered programming a holographic nurse to assist the Doctor. For that matter, it's awfully coincidental that all the actual nurses assigned to assist the original ship's surgeon were apparently killed when he was. It's also a bit odd that the Val Jean didn't at least have someone trained as a field medic.
-
HighPriest
- Redshirt
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:55 am
Re: VOY - Night
I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Neelix suggestion, but... while I wouldn't personally consider it recreation (I loathe self-improvement in all its forms), I do agree that the ship needs a lot more cross-discipline training, and a long journey through what should be the boringest space they'll ever see seems like a good time to do that sort of thing. I'm told some other people actually enjoy learning new things (lunatics).
Even worse, Neelix's other offered suggestion also seems surprisingly sound. Allocating a full cargo bay to be a single person's personal quarters is pretty wasteful. It would make a lot more sense for Seven to occupy crew quarters and make better use of what is presumably one of the largest rooms on the ship.
Even if we're talking about some *other* Cargo Bay 2, one presumably used to store cargo, another holodeck could plausibly be a better use of the space if whatever was being stored could be squeezed in elsewhere while the ship passed through the Boring Zone. At minimum, there should be some empty shuttle bays by now that they could use to store their junk. As bonus points, suggesting such a conversion is well within the purview of Neelix's job as morale officer.
I feel dirty.
