Alternate Star Trek Aesops

[Madner Kami]

I'd rather Jake calls it "In Valen's Name".

[Yukaphile]

Related, I felt Valen's story was far stronger than what Sisko went through later into the war. The idea of the Orb of the Emissary had potential, that... they just didn't live up to quite well. I'm going to put that down to what others here said on how "Ron Moore can't answer his own questions" and that Robert Hewitt Wolfe had left for Andromeda, I believe? I mean, the stuff with Sarah Sisko is... unwanted... and doesn't really go anywhere. Plus it retcons the Prophets into generic Jedi vs. Sith. And not as well-done as the Vorlons vs. Shadows, tbh. To use the Babylon 5 comparison again.

[CharlesPhipps]

I'd rather Jake calls it "In Valen's Name".

As much as people want to comment on the similarities, I think 90% of Deep Space Nine is, "We created these elaborate backstories for the Trill, Cardassians, Bajorans, and so on on TNG that never get used because they move onto something different next episode. What if we could actually explore all this crap in-depth?"

Sort of like how Battlestar Galactica's reboot was, "This is what we wanted Voyager to be, goddammit!"

[CharlesPhipps]

Plus it retcons the Prophets into generic Jedi vs. Sith. And not as well-done as the Vorlons vs. Shadows, tbh. To use the Babylon 5 comparison again.

Eh, the point of B5 is the Vorlons were assholes impersonating angels and demonizing the Shadows.

While the Prophets were, in fact, revealed to be real and the Wraiths to be bad.

The comparison is hard becasue one is about discovering that the religion and mythology you think you're following is a lie and the other is Star Trek secularist (Sisko) discovering. "Okay, how do I deal with the fact that, yes, this religion is legitimately 100% true. Not a computer, not a weird alien."

[clearspira]

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2020/01 ... legations/

Here's an article on the topic of Babylon5/Deep Space 9 plagiarism. TL;DR - It is the opinion of the author (and mine) that both shows ended up going off in such wildly different directions by the end that it is impossible to claim that DS9 CONTINUED to rip off B5 if it ever did at all.
Or to put it another way, I wish to invoke Chuck's explanation on the difference between a rip-ff and a homage: its what you add to it that matters.

[clearspira]

ENT: "Cogenitor" seems to be an episode where Archer rips into Trip for the fact that he drove Charles to commit suicide. Except, the woman chose DEATH to returning to slavery. Did Archer miss that apparently the Vissians are like the Taliban or the Handmaid's Tale? A gender is kept solely for reproduction, not allowed to read, and subject to constant rape?

And TRIP is the wrong one?

I cannot wait for Chuck to reach this episode. I can see another ''Fortunate Son'' style rant coming on where Archer is only right because the script says he is. I would say though that they are far more insidious than either the Taliban or Gilead. Because as we saw, the Vissians otherwise come off as completely charming people who have a culture of fine art, food, science and technology. If they weren't dumb enough to bring their rape slave along with them on their voyage then you would never know that they were scum.

One minor point though: Charles wasn't a woman. Its actually kind of an interesting discussion point when you think about it. Human women were oppressed by men throughout most of history on Earth and yet here we have a Vissian woman teaming up with a man to do the same to the third sex of her people. It shows that bigotry isn't confined to what it between your legs.

[Yukaphile]

I'm not calling B5 a ripoff - just that since JMS planned his out, and since the foundation was more reliant on Ron Moore's skills toward the end of DS9, it floundered a bit in the writing department. Especially since I hear his Battlestar Galactica reboot has similar religious overtones. Feels that HE wanted to make the Prophets religious. I think they held up well right up until "Sacrifice of Angels" was done and then they stopped being who they were. I'd say if anything, perhaps the genesis to DS9 was a ripoff, creatively, or legally, but even by the midway point of the first season, they weren't ripping it off and in fact went out of their way to avoid B5 comparisons (like the Grey Order business, which is fine, since I prefer the Obsidian Order - sounds more hardcore). But there can be no denying the Vorlons vs. Shadows has similarities to the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths, and imo, how the Vorlons and Shadows were written is far, far, far, FAR stronger than it was in late DS9. And it shows the truth of what Chuck had said, that they were running out of ideas past the formulaic mold that late TNG itself was struggling with. Just look at Voyager. I'm sure some fans on these forums would make the same claims for the shows today. Maybe? Maybe not. Just my two cents.

[Madner Kami]

I'd rather Jake calls it "In Valen's Name".

As much as people want to comment on the similarities, I think 90% of Deep Space Nine is, "We created these elaborate backstories for the Trill, Cardassians, Bajorans, and so on on TNG that never get used because they move onto something different next episode. What if we could actually explore all this crap in-depth?"

Sort of like how Battlestar Galactica's reboot was, "This is what we wanted Voyager to be, goddammit!"

Despite mockery, I think of B5 and DS9 as more of a sort of parallel evolution. The "ecological" niche they occupied was primed for something to enter at the time of their making, with nothing to fill it. The time was ripe for a SciFi-show that transcended the serial structure of previous shows and placed a heavy emphasis on episodic story-telling (while not completely leaving the serial structure behind). That both happen to be based around a space-station is coincidence, but also kind of a consequence of pretty much all previous SciFi being entirely focused on (space-)ships or (planetary) locations where the characters happen to be and changing as the story needs.

[Yukaphile]

I think nowadays the corporate hawks are more out of touch than ever. They pull out early criticisms of DS9 to wave off fan dissent, as if trying to justify what they do. It's bizarre, since they own the rights. Some complaints are clearly a minority (like people who got bent out of shape that Kira was "too strong," lol, and let's be real, she CAN be a tool sometimes, especially early on), or those who deserve to be ignored (like complaints about the lesbian kiss - same complaints that led studio execs to dumb down the Batman movies), but something like how DS9 was too dark? I think clinging to "Roddenberry's vision" may be a cheap excuse, but let's not kid ourselves, any number of issues on DS9 could have been resolved with some of the technical plots of the week on TNG. Like closing the wormhole, which some rightfully feel is out of place for the Federation. I'm not diminishing what DS9 is or its legacy, just that some may have felt disappointed that it's all too easy to slip into evolving trends of chasing 1990s grunge dark media, of which there was aplenty at the time. And ofc, the B5 vs. DS9 fandom wars surely didn't help matters. I think DS9 has mostly gotten a positive reevaluation since, you know, B5 wrapped up, we know most of the secrets, where the franchises have gone, and we miss the days that we had great writers who loved their craft. Times are different now. The Internet isn't just for the geeks, but everyone. And who likes having to share the planet with seven billion idiots who think they're so much greater than they really are? And to preempt any scathing replies, not applicable to me. I'm not great, I will never pretend to be. So you have to share the Web with a total nobody freak who is not a blip on any radar and never will be great. I know exactly how ungreat I am. Deal with it.

[CharlesPhipps]

Some more aesops:

TNG: "The Masterpiece Society"

That a bunch of utopian assholes trying to create a totalitarian caste system turn out to actually not be that good at planning a society. Oh and that if you think your tiny colony of a few thousand people will remain more advanced than the entire rest of the galaxy exchanging information, you're a moron.

TNG: "Homeward"

The Prime Directive is actually an excuse by the Federation not to get itself involved in rescue work and humanitarianism by the 24th century. Oh and Worf's brother is actually a horrifying cultural observer who takes advantage of local women.