Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Mabus wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:09 pmall I've seen so far is that Rebecca Ferguson, who plays Lady Jessica, claims that the book has some 60s sexism (even though the book itself was quite progressive in regards to its female characters)
It's certainly true that Frank Herbert was a product of his times; rather like original Star Trek, we tend to perceive as retro things which seemed wildly futuristic at the time. But that's not what gets so-called progressives' panties in a twist: Dune postulates a future society which is outwardly patriarchal but is in actuality dominated by women whose advanced training, applied knowledge of psychology, and memories of the ancestral past give them de facto control. The issue is that they rule as the power behind the throne, accepting seemingly subservient roles, rather than being openly dominant, and there is a school of cultural thought that finds this outrageously offensive.
she literally told the director Denis Villeneuve: "I don't get the book. Can you please explain it to me as if I'm a child?"
As if?
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Oddly silent in this thread, considering it was released today. Am I really the first one to watch it? Originally planned to see it midday, but forgetting my CoViD-papers at home lead to me being unable to enter the cinema 🙄

I'm kinda.excited to see it, especially after several reviews complained about the movie being too slow and head-heavy... Erm yeah. It's Dune. If it's fast action-paced and easy on the brain, it would fail as an adaptation...
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Madner Kami wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:16 pm Oddly silent in this thread, considering it was released today. Am I really the first one to watch it? Originally planned to see it midday, but forgetting my CoViD-papers at home lead to me being unable to enter the cinema 🙄

I'm kinda.excited to see it, especially after several reviews complained about the movie being too alle and head-heavy... Erm yeah. It's Dune. If it's fast action-paced and easy on the brain, it would fail as an adaptation...
It doesn't come out for another month in the US.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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So was it any good?
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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It's good. I won't love it as much as Lynch's Dune. I highly recommend it, but there are a few stumbling stones that I am trying to figure out whether it's down to me it wanting to be "perfect" or whether it's really something that goes wrong. But let me repeat it:

Go watch it!

I can't discuss a few things without going into spoiler-territory, so I'll drop the spoiler warning here. I am aware that we all know the general story of Dune, but I feel there are a few, not necessarily story-related things I want you to experience yourself uncoloured. So: You were warned. Here be dragons!

I'll get the first thing out of my mind and ears straight away: The music. Hans Zimmer is the composer and the good thing is, he doesn't just "zimmern" it. "Zimmern" in German is a colloquial way of saying "to build something", usually meant in a slightly derogatory manner especially when it's "hinzimmern" - I find this term very apt when it comes to Zimmer's work, as while he's a god of his craft, he tends to repeat himself a lot and in 9 out of ten cases you are immediatly aware of who did the music. I did not in this case and the music, which I feel is a good thing and while not having many "earworms", is very good and fitting enough. What really throws me off though is, the... erm... "main theme"? You know that voiced part you hear in the trailers? That ethno "naheema"-crescendo, for lack of a better word? It's prevalent in the movie. I found it off-putting in the trailer already and it's ubiquitous use in the movie is just annoying, as I feel it doesn't suit the movie. The movie is, for the most parts, very subdued in tone and this crescendo rips you so very much out of it. Toto and Brian Eno did a much greater job overall, especially when it comes to the mystical parts and experiences and you'll not find anything that comes even close to the "Prophecy"-theme or the main theme of their soundtrack.

Having gotten this out of the system, I'll come to the cast. They're all great, but I got problems with "the three women" and, kinda with two men (by extension of an issue with one of the women):
The thing that most disturbed me was Jessica. Jessica in the books I felt was a very emotional, but very controlled person. Her emotions, particularly towards Paul and Duke Leto were very pronounced, but due to her Bene Gesseritt-training, she never wore those emotions on her sleeves and collar except when in very private moments. This version of Jessica however? No control. At all. She comes across as permanently extremely nervous, outright neurotic in some cases. The scene that threw me off the most was the box-scene, where she stands outside the room, guarding it, extremely visibly shaking in fear about her son while other people were around and saw her. Now, granted, some things you can't show the same way a book tells it, but Villeneuve definitly needed to find a different way of displaying her fears, emotions and inner monologue, because it really undermines the "otherworldlyness" that Bene Gesseritt ooze out in such situations. And this only goes further down the drain from that scene on, as Jessica seems to become increasingly gaunt and permanently nervous and that's just not her, in my perception, as she lacks any sort of control about herself and constantly and visibly seems to teeter on the edge of a complete nervous breakdown. Only towards the end, when she's forced to fight with Stilgar, you see something of the characters inherent power come back, but that is way too late.
Liet Kynes... Why? Why was this white man transformed into a black woman? They don't do anything with it, so this change was literally made to have a prominent role cast with a black woman and that's all there is. Plus, this only makes it all the more obvious why this change was done, when you look for other black actors. There's two. Two other black actors and what role are they cast in? Some rando in the background? An Atreides, Harkonnen or Sardaukar trooper? A servant? Nope. One is the imperial ambassador who formalizes the takeover of Arrakis by the Atreides, a scene that is not only completely superfluous (thus occupying run-time that could be used elsewhere), but also is a scene that repeatedly keeps centering (literally in terms of where the camera is looking at) on that ambassador for "some reason", whose only contributions to the scene is to read a large scroll which proclaims the takeover and asking the Duke to put his seal onto the scroll, legal formalities. That's all there is. All this entire scene does is, to show that there's a black man in a highly esteemed position, just like with Liet. I find this infuriating, because particuarly when it comes to trying to make the Empire more "diverse" (which isn't a bad thing in and of itself), this completely fails, because you will not find a single visibly black Atreides soldier (and we see a lot of those), no black Harkonnen-soldier, no black Sardaukar, no black servant, no extra or background character that is black and you will not even find a single black Fremen, except for...
Jamis. Why though? You've got a bunch of people who vaguely look rather uniform in their ethnic makeup. Just like in the books, the Fremen are vaguely "colour-coded" as "middle easterners", a vague mish-mash of northern african, arab, levantine, persian and spanish makeup and here in their midst, is this prominently black dude who is one of the only Fremen we see without their entire gear in the face. I don't get it. And just to reiterate: Just like with the ambassador and Liet Kynes, my issue isn't that they are black. My issue is, that they are the only black people. I don't like pandering of this type, because I feel it undermines the good intentions behind it. But at least in the case of the Fremen, there's a chance that we may see more black people down the line, so I won't harp too much on Jamis. As for a more diverse Imperium? I have my doubts we'll see that happen. I would be positively surprised by making the Padishah Emperor and his family black. That'd be a sight to behold, but I doubt that'd happen, because that'd be an evil black man.
So let me get back to Liet Kynes. The "making him a she"-issue. I mean, it probably shouldn't bother me as his sex is arguably completely irrelevant. I tend to disagree, as I've stated before, the Empire is patriarchal in it's outward makeup and that's one of the many ways through which Herbert, whether intentionally or unintentionally, points out the perpetual stasis humanity is caught in, in the year 10191, a reason for humanity's predictable downfall, playing into the "Golden Path". As I've stated before, I feel this is an issue with world-building that doesn't really pose a problem for this movie, but can be a problem further down the line, as the calcification of society and everything that comes along with it (including predictable evolution, stratification and segregation), is important to the overarching story. World-building... That'd be a nice segway into another issue, but I first need to finish this:
Chani. Zendaya is an actress who has the cocky teenager down to a T. I don't know her from any of her roles other than the new Mary Jane and now Chani. I feel they are both one and the same and I feel this is a complete miscast for the Chani I remember. Now granted, she's not as sarcastic as the "Holland"-MJ (I love that character-interpretation by the way), but her manerisms and the way she speaks just screams "Hello, I am MJ" to me. Now this could be in part down to the german-dub, but in general german dubs are an art-form in and of itself. "We" generally tend to use the same voice-actor to represent the same actor across media, but our voice-talent generally has a large range of acting, so that often times you won't even notice that the same voice represents different actors, because they just sound so different. Not in this case though and I think that is done on purpose, namely because Zendaya acts like... Zendaya, including all her mannerisms, something which a dub can't change, for obvious reasons. Personally, I feel that Chani needs to be played and portrayed very subdued and controlled, kinda like Jessica, but Zendaya just doesn't or can't. Now whether that's down to the actor or the director or just different character-interpretations is up to debate and there's much left of the story where this first impression can change and I didn't find her distracting in Paul's visions of her, it's only when the actual character appears on screen that the issue rears it's head prominently and we don't see much of her yet. For context: The movie ends when Paul gets accepted into Stilgar's tribe, after having killed Jamis and before reaching Sietch Tabr.

As for the other actors: Well, the only asian in the cast is a bad guy, Dr Yueh. But we're used to asians being able to play any role, so there's nothing sticking out there in one way or the other and the role isn't particularly prominent overall so enh. I feel they could have given Yueh more screen-time. On that issue, I wish'd we have seen more of Halleck in particular as well. In general, many of the side-characters are grossly undershown and under-utilized. Mapes has two scenes, could as well have been completely cut. Same for Guerney and Thufir. They might as well not have been there. I mean, I get it, it's a large group of people and many of them are mostly irrelevant to the story of this part, but why is there no scene of Guerney playing the Balisett? Why is Mapes allowed to give Jessica the Krys, but doesn't give a warning? Why is Thufir in a lot of inconsequent scenes, but doesn't get to look at Jessica with a flinch in his eyes? Run-time, I suppose, but come on, throw the fans some more bones. Cut the superfluous ambassador, give the time to a talk between Guerney and Thufir, where they talk about Jessica and segway it with Guerney playing the Balisett. Well, at least he gets to recite some peotry, so there's that. Momoa as Duncan. Enh, no feelings in either the one way or the other. He plays his Ronon-Conan-thing well enough and it fits the character, I suppose. But no depth and not much refinement there. But then again, Idaho's depth comes mostly from his later lifes, so enh.

The portrayal of the Baron... Oh dear. Great, I think. Now we don't see much of his scheming side, seeming to lean more on the brutish-side of the Lynch-version, but there's more to that man and I think we'll see that down the line. Overall, he feels like an amalgamation of the best traits of the Lynch-version and the book-version. He's the floating fat man of Lynch, but not a cackling maniac. He is cold, seemingly calculating, a little bit mad and as said, you don't get it thrown in your face, but there's more to that man. The best theatrical interpretation of that character so far, imo.
Oscar Isaac, a very good match, nothing much to say about it. Timothée Chalamet is cast very well as well and his facial features lend themselves extremely well to the "Atreides traits", particularly when you see his profile. Dave Bautista fits the role as Rabban pretty darn good as well. Brutish, hulking, down to a T.
Overall, I can't say anything bad about the abilities of the cast, outside of maybe Zendaya and Ferguson and Momoa for the reasons pointed out above. I feel Thufir is played a bit too jovial, but it doesn't hurt the character in any way.

So that's the cast/characters and music out of the way. Down to world-building and book-accuracy. Story-wise, it leans very close to the story of the book, so I can't say much bad about that (quite the contrary). Where I feel the movie fails repeatedly is world-building. Those may be minor-gripes, but it's the "sore thumb"-thing for me. Once I see it, I can't unsee it.
Water-discipline. I need to get this out of my head first. It's flat out not there. As with some other things, it's kinda unclear why the Fremen are so special. Sure, they are a desert-people who lead a harsh live in a hostile environment (so they must be tough), but you get little display of the extreme discipline they need to live under and that this discipline is, what makes them so extremely special compared to pretty much anyone else. And in general, the importance of water to the societies of Dune is grossly underplayed. The movie pays lip-service to it, by showing a scene where Paul suggests to not water the date-palms in the courtyard (oh wait, there's a fourth black actor there, the "gardener"), but that's about as far as it gets, no scene where Jessica opens the water of the palace to the populace instead of the denigrating "towel-ritual" of the Harkonnen for example. In general, I'd say the Atreides get far too few chances to show their populace (of which you see next to nothing - kinda like the "Dunkirk"-syndrome; the movie just doesn't have nearly enough extras) that they are different to the Harkonnen and this, again, will pay off or rather not pay off later down the line, because it's kinda hard to understand why the Fremen even bother putting up with Jessica and Paul. I mean, sure, there's this religious-angle that gets put up front once or twice, but... needs more show, less tell.
Let me give you an example: The first meeting with Stilgar and him giving his water (spitting on the table). It isn't Paul who gets the meaning of this, but it is given to Idaho instead. This is another of the instances were small, seemingly inconsequential changes, somewhat undermine things later down the line. I mean, it makes sense in so far as Idaho has spent time with the Fremen and probably encountered that ritual before (and it crucially gives Idaho something important to do), but the fact that Paul is the one who gets the meaning in the books is important in the same way that him putting on his still-suit correctly without help and experience is. It shows to "the natives", that he is one of them despite not being one of them. The Lisan-al-Gaib. This is a central motife and this is important and the movie drastically fails to play this out in several instances. It talks a lot about this in particular though, but just doesn't show it. Same with the deeply ritualistic, disciplined and religious nature of the Fremen and I feel this is many small cogs in the machine being changed, that each are inconsequential when you just look at the individual cog, but will make the machine run very differently overall.

Minor gripes:

I don't feel the fighting-style is quite adequate. It's visibly different from the regular martial arts stuff we get to see (huge bonus point in my book), but I don't quite feel it shows the uniqueness it needed to show, as it's hard to make a visual distinction between the slow strikes and the fast ones in some instances. This also has repercussions to the fight between Jamis and Paul, as it's in-world-perception changes from "is toying with Jamis because he's just plain better" to "toying with Jamis because Paul can't bring himself to kill that man" (whether that's relevant is up to debate, but again: small cogs).
Edit: Oh god, that reminds me of another instance of failing to display what water means to the Fremen and the lack of a water-discipline. Paul doesn't shed tears for Jamis, so the Fremen don't get to see how an outsider generously gives water to a dead Fremen. Important world-building there, wasted and squandered.

Fighting style... We see two instances of a laser being used. They are uber-powerful weapons in both displays and in both cases their use was... unintentionally suicidal. Now I can't remember a single scene where it's pointed out that a laser hitting a shield results in a rather violent thermonuclear reaction on both ends of the beam. So there's Idaho fleeing from the palace in an ornithoper and a Harkonnen ship starts laying waste to the city of Arakeen in the desperate attempt to hit the shielded thopter. The needle-like beam (I love that effect by the way, you have to see that) cuts through entire blocks of the city but manages to miss the expertly flown thopter. It's a great scene, if not for that whole apocalyptic scenario that would ensue if the thopter were hit. Similarly, when the Harkonnen attack the research station. They're shielded and they just fought a guy (Idaho) who was shielded, so the chance that their other targets are shielded as well is pretty high. Yet they whip out a laser-cutter, which promptly doesn't just cut through a solid stone door, but through the entire spacious room behind said door. Kynes, Paul and Jessica are desperately hoping not to get hit, because the beam cuts through the stone without effort and basically has the effective effect as someone firing minigun at a plywood door while having unlimited ammunition (minus the splintering). So they very clearly aren't bothered by what would happen if a shield is hit with a laser. This in terms makes you wonder: Is that actually a thing in that movie-version of the story? And if not, then why aren't lasers more prominently used, given you can make them easily man-portable (as shown) and still being ridiculously powerful?
And again, the small cogs: Why aren't lasers used against the Fremen either and in particular? They don't wear shields. Can't wear shields. In the books, the military powers of the Empire just are so stuck in their ways, that they can't concieve of a different approach, plus the ever-present danger of the Fremen suiciding into them with a shield-trap. This doesn't seem to be a problem here, so again, a small and insignificant cog is changed with big ramifications being ignored or insufficiently adressed, because as is, all it needs is a single Harkonnen ship loaded with a laser as shown in the Battle for Arakeen (it literally cuts through almost the entire city and this version of Arakeen isn't a small settlement, but a multi-storied, densely packed metropolis), to completely cut through a Sietch's stonewalls and utterly shishkebab everything inside.

I miss Feyd-Rautha. Yeah, his omission at least in this part of the movie is fine, as he had nothing to do anyways and what little he added was done by Rabban without changing his character (inquiring about the plans regarding the takeover), but I wonder if they'll completely omit him from this Dune-version down the line. We'll see, I guess. Truth be told, the character is borderline irrelevant in the books, but it's nice to have the Baron have two "heirs", one who represents his brutish side and one who represents his cunning and refined side (which plays into his long-term plans with Arrakis). I guess this makes these Harkonnen overall more brutish in appearance, which I feel could become somewhat one-note down the line, but there's much room left for expansion.

Overall: This is a good movie and a good adaptation. Not flawless, but very good with some blemishes. Blockbuster-material? Nope. But I guess that is hardly surprising given the base material. I do want to give it a must-see, but I don't quite feel this to be true, neither for fans of the material nor the average Joe, so I am somewhat flip-flopping on the final verdict.
Last edited by Madner Kami on Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

Post by Madner Kami »

Oh, spoiler-warning again, I have to point out something I really loved:

Paul's visions. We don't just get visions that play out 1:1, but we get visions of possible futures or futures that play out slightly different to what happens in the end without altering the meaning of the vision. In particular I remember a vision-scene about Jamis, where he's actually fairly friendly towards Paul and tells him, that he'll teach him the way of the Fremen. This naturally doesn't play out that way and Jamis is instantly hostile to Paul, leading into their deadly duel. Now why do I find that scene fascinating? Simple: While it doesn't play out exactly as Paul envisioned it, it still yet happens what he saw. The duel with Jamis is crucial in teaching Paul the way of the Fremen, particularly in so far as talk isn't just talk with Fremen, they do and they don't half-arse it. It's all or nothing for them, always. Paul's first kill is imporant in making him Muad'Dib and important in gaining the respect and loyalty of the Fremen of Stilgar's group and so Jamis has tought him the way of the Fremen.

So in essence, Paul's vision is both true and not true. It shows him a possible future that didn't happen and yet did happen in a way. I feel this is a nice display of what having these visions does to Paul later down the line. You know, showing him a future he doesn't want to happen and that he regardless of his wishes still makes happen with his actions (or inactions), the paralysing nature of an evitable inevitable future that he doesn't want to happen but can't help but make happen. The nature of his near-but-not-quite status of being a Kwisatz Haderach literally one generation too early.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Frustration wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:40 amThe issue is that they rule as the power behind the throne, accepting seemingly subservient roles, rather than being openly dominant, and there is a school of cultural thought that finds this outrageously offensive.
And yet there is nuance there in that for hundreds of thousands of years women have been choosing men and shaping the species whether they've known it or not.

To be so short signed to see this through a simple lens of dominance and subservience is naive, and I'd admit, quite a male thing to do.
Madner Kami wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:27 pm
Having gotten this out of the system, I'll come to the cast. They're all great, but I got problems with "the three women" and, kinda with two men (by extension of an issue with one of the women):
The thing that most disturbed me was Jessica. Jessica in the books I felt was a very emotional, but very controlled person. Her emotions, particularly towards Paul and Duke Leto were very pronounced, but due to her Bene Gesseritt-training, she never wore those emotions on her sleeves and collar except when in very private moments. This version of Jessica however? No control. At all. She comes across as permanently extremely nervous, outright neurotic in some cases. The scene that threw me off the most was the box-scene, where she stands outside the room, guarding it, extremely visibly shaking in fear about her son while other people were around and saw her. Now, granted, some things you can't show the same way a book tells it, but Villeneuve definitly needed to find a different way of displaying her fears, emotions and inner monologue, because it really undermines the "otherworldlyness" that Bene Gesseritt ooze out in such situations. And this only goes further down the drain from that scene on, as Jessica seems to become increasingly gaunt and permanently nervous and that's just not her, in my perception, as she lacks any sort of control about herself and constantly and visibly seems to teeter on the edge of a complete nervous breakdown. Only towards the end, when she's forced to fight with Stilgar, you see something of the characters inherent power come back, but that is way too late.
Lynch's Jessica was far too cold. I always like Saskia Reeves from the mini-series. She was near perfect and struggled with the colder side, but was square on with the warmth.
That'd be a nice segway into another issue, but I first need to finish this:
Chani. Zendaya is an actress who has the cocky teenager down to a T. I don't know her from any of her roles other than the new Mary Jane and now Chani. I feel they are both one and the same and I feel this is a complete miscast for the Chani I remember.
Chani is about the weakest character in the work. She has less of her own role and more as being a piece of Paul's destiny being her existence. Their connection never fit.
The portrayal of the Baron... Oh dear. Great, I think. Now we don't see much of his scheming side, seeming to lean more on the brutish-side of the Lynch-version, but there's more to that man and I think we'll see that down the line. Overall, he feels like an amalgamation of the best traits of the Lynch-version and the book-version. He's the floating fat man of Lynch, but not a cackling maniac. He is cold, seemingly calculating, a little bit mad and as said, you don't get it thrown in your face, but there's more to that man. The best theatrical interpretation of that character so far, imo.
Ian McNeice was solid in the role and struck the balance of the Baron being a schemer willing to play the fool to advance himself.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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The film seems to be doing well in the international box office so far and it's getting a Chinese release soon, but we need to wait for its domestic US release and see how it does.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

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Beastro wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:10 pm To be so short signed to see this through a simple lens of dominance and subservience is naive, and I'd admit, quite a male thing to do.
What a lovely bit of bigotry. Let me get that for you -

*smacks Beastro upside the head*

Regarding Jessica: in the novel, she keeps Paul calm at several critical moments and is exerting monstrous self-control, but is devastated to learn of both Leto's death - she genuinely loved him, which Bene Gesserit are supposed to eschew - and her own ancestry, since she has come to hate the Harkonnens as much as any other of their victims.
That'd be a nice segway into another issue, but I first need to finish this:
Chani. Zendaya is an actress who has the cocky teenager down to a T. I don't know her from any of her roles other than the new Mary Jane and now Chani. I feel they are both one and the same and I feel this is a complete miscast for the Chani I remember.
Chani is about the weakest character in the work. She has less of her own role and more as being a piece of Paul's destiny being her existence. Their connection never fit.

In the first section, yeah, Chani is barely a name. She comes into her own more in the second section.
Ian McNeice was solid in the role and struck the balance of the Baron being a schemer willing to play the fool to advance himself.
Or merely to amuse himself. Baron Harkonnen is ruthlessly driven and endlessly calculating, but he gets bored easily and is entirely willing to indulge his whims as long as they don't hinder his plans. Plus it makes good camouflage for his calculation and makes it easier to impose rapid actions without exposing the actual reasoning. Consider the moment when Feyd signals to his lackeys to take a corpse away, revealing to the Baron who his accomplices are, and the Baron orders that they be killed because they didn't carry the body gracefully enough. There's no actual whim there, but it's disguised as such.
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Re: Dune (The 2021 Movie)

Post by hammerofglass »

Now that it's actually out where I live I really liked it. The pace really lets you vibe and immerse yourself in the setting, the visuals are stunning, the music is solid. Lots of cool very human moments like when the Emperor's herald shows up on Caliban for an official ritual and everyone, including him, is trying and failing to pretend that they don't think the whole thing is a massive waste of time and money.

That said, there is basically no setting exposition in it. Plenty about Dune itself and the emerging strategic situation, but nothing abut how the Imperium and Houses are structured, what the conflict is about (and they cut all the stuff like the Atreides raid on Geidi Prime that made it a two-way fight rather than just a murder), why everybody uses swords, what the Bene Gesserit even are, etc etc. If I wasn't already familiar with it I would have been utterly lost. Neither of the people I saw it with who weren't familiar even caught that the Baron and the (unseen) Emperor were separate characters, making the whole plot nonsense to them.
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