VOY - Natural Law

[drewder]

Good Prime Directive counterpoint to ''Homeward''. Its interesting to note though that humans ourselves have been interfered with by aliens at least half a dozen times to my knowledge. There are the Greek gods, the white guys who gave the Native Americans technology, the Vulcans, Quinn the Q, the aliens from the ''37s'', and Gary Seven's employers. And that figure only goes up if we include the many massively polluting time travel events.

It seems to me the Q would be exempt from the prime directive. On top of the obvious fact that they're certainly not subject to federation law, the purpose of the prime directive is to prevent unforeseen consequences of their actions. However, since the Q have unlimited understanding of time and space they're perfectly capable of understanding all of the ramifications of their actions and thus could never have unforeseen consequences.

While I agree it would be pretty much impossible to enforce Federation law on the Q, I've been skeptical of the whole idea that their knowledge is unlimited. Omnipotent I can believe, but omniscient? Our main Q just seems way too curious for that. Plus is this were true, then why did they seem so unsure of what would happen if Quinn was allowed to expire? Shouldn't they have already know every possible outcome and been able to confirm the possible example they couldn't find in making their case against it?

It's my theory that Q has never been curious about Picard or humanity. Rather they're tweaking the circumstances for their preferred outcome. They're not tormenting Picard, they're training him.

[Al-1701]

I'm with Madner Kami. This barrier has hampered the development of the Ventu. By allowing the barrier to go back up has condemned to living in a terrarium. But, like many Star Trek episodes, Voyager will just head out and not have to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Chuck is right that the Ventu should've been asked what they wanted. They probably would like their territory respected, but I suspect being kept under a dome would be a non-starter.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm here to affirm that I started to think we were watching the race episode when Chuck started riffing on Tom's punishment at the start.

[RobbyB1982]

Did he say that this was the last voyager episode that he hadn't covered?

The latest episode in the series, given that its riiiight before the end. There's still 6 more.

Season 4
S4E03 - Day of Honor
S4E15 - Hunters

Season 5
S5E07 - Infinite Regress
S5E13 - Gravity

Season 7
S7E12 - Lineage
S7E14 - Prophecy
S7E22 - Natural Law

I wonder which one he's saving for last?

Day of Honor is about as middle of the series as you can get, and is a B'lanna episode.
Lineage is the one where Blanna finds out she's pregnant. Actually a pretty good episode.
Prophecy is an *immediate* follow up.. where B'lanna's child is the Chosen One... so those two might need to be paired up. 3 different B'lanna episodes in the last 6? That probably says... something about B'lanna episodes.

Infinite Regress is actually a legitimately *good* episode, so that would be a pleasant note to end on I suppose.

Gravity is a love interest of the week.
Hunters they get some messages to home and introduces the Hirogen.

[CharlesPhipps]

There's a very interesting scifi argument there. The culture under the barrier CAN'T develop. It will be stuck like it is forever because it is unable to get the resources to move upward and outward. Which is an interesting variant of the Prime Directive.

[Madner Kami]

There's a very interesting scifi argument there. The culture under the barrier CAN'T develop. It will be stuck like it is forever because it is unable to get the resources to move upward and outward. Which is an interesting variant of the Prime Directive.

Yup. Voyager wouldn't just be morally right, but compelled by the Prime Directive to take down that Ur-Quan Slave Shield.

[Nealithi]

Check me on this. Voyager stopped at this space faring race's shipyards for resupply etc. Which means they are exchanging items they have. They have traded hologram and replicator tech in the past.
The wrecked shuttle has its deflector keeping the shield down. When they say they will be cleaning up their technological debris. The space group fires on Voyager to keep them from taking the shuttle deflector and thus reraising the shield here.

Is the PD the only reason Janeway was not just trading the broken thing to these people? Because it if they are calling the deflector 'too advanced' for the other race. Then the PD also has levels.
"Hey you are advanced enough we can talk to you. No no, can't tell you anything about tech you have not figured out on your own. Glad you got to warp. But no grav plates or aspirin for you."

[Mabus]

This episode got me thinking:
1. What exactly is the exact threshold at which the Prime Directive is considered broken? If the space aliens only present themselves to one single native group, and the native other groups from the planet aren't affect (ex: Apollo only affected the Greek populations and didn't appear to interfere with say, ancient Chinese states or Amazonian tribes; the aliens from "Tattoo" only affected the development of some Native American tribes, while ignoring the rest of the planet), can the Prime Directive even be considered broken?
2. Was there any episode anywhere in Trek where there was a piece of alien technology left on Earth that affected the development of any Earth cultures? For some reason, unlike other planet of the week episodes, where they keep finding ancient alien artifacts, Earth is largely free of ancient alien tech. Hell, there aren't even alien artifacts in our solar system in Trek. How would that affect Prime Directive? Won't that mean that the Vulcans can now interfere? In fact...
3. Let's say for a moment that in a parallel universe Earth, NASA discovers an ancient alien ship crashed on the Moon eons ago. The Vulcans never saw it, no one else did. But by sheer accident, NASA manages to find it, during Apollo 11 mission, and try to salvage the ship. Does that mean that since our culture has been "contaminated" by the confirmation of existence of alien life, the Vulcans can now contact us? Is this enough for them to contact us?
4. In fact, if the Ledosians were to be in the Alpha Quadrant, and the Federation would come across their planet at a time before the Ledosians invent warp drive, would the Prime Directive even apply?

[clearspira]

I'm with Madner Kami. This barrier has hampered the development of the Ventu. By allowing the barrier to go back up has condemned to living in a terrarium. But, like many Star Trek episodes, Voyager will just head out and not have to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Chuck is right that the Ventu should've been asked what they wanted. They probably would like their territory respected, but I suspect being kept under a dome would be a non-starter.

That is my opinion regarding all of those ''beautiful'' Amazon tribes that fire arrows at helicopters. ''Ooh! What about their culture!'' someone always bleats.

So? What about their culture? They live in filth, they die of preventable diseases, they think a helicopter is a dragon. Whatever stories they have, or unique language they developed or god they worship will still be there if they are wearing jeans and have a Big Mac in their hand.

''Ooh! But what is so good about us?'' someone always bleats.

You mean, apart from our advanced medicine, plentiful food and water, instant communication, knowledge of the universe, warm clothes, housing that isn't made out of mud and twigs? The poorest Westerner lives a life infinitely better than anyone who is living at a cro magnon level of development no matter how much those of us spoiled by it like to moan. Fact is, the rest of us developed AWAY from how they live for a reason.

[clearspira]

This episode got me thinking:
1. What exactly is the exact threshold at which the Prime Directive is considered broken? If the space aliens only present themselves to one single native group, and the native other groups from the planet aren't affect (ex: Apollo only affected the Greek populations and didn't appear to interfere with say, ancient Chinese states or Amazonian tribes; the aliens from "Tattoo" only affected the development of some Native American tribes, while ignoring the rest of the planet), can the Prime Directive even be considered broken?
2. Was there any episode anywhere in Trek where there was a piece of alien technology left on Earth that affected the development of any Earth cultures? For some reason, unlike other planet of the week episodes, where they keep finding ancient alien artifacts, Earth is largely free of ancient alien tech. Hell, there aren't even alien artifacts in our solar system in Trek. How would that affect Prime Directive? Won't that mean that the Vulcans can now interfere? In fact...
3. Let's say for a moment that in a parallel universe Earth, NASA discovers an ancient alien ship crashed on the Moon eons ago. The Vulcans never saw it, no one else did. But by sheer accident, NASA manages to find it, during Apollo 11 mission, and try to salvage the ship. Does that mean that since our culture has been "contaminated" by the confirmation of existence of alien life, the Vulcans can now contact us? Is this enough for them to contact us?
4. In fact, if the Ledosians were to be in the Alpha Quadrant, and the Federation would come across their planet at a time before the Ledosians invent warp drive, would the Prime Directive even apply?

I can answer number 2: The Greek gods are aliens. Its been 3,000 years and we are still being influenced today by what they did. I would go further than this and say, ''is it really that believable that these aliens remained in Greece?'' The entire early history of Star Trek is the plot of Stargate and it always amuses me how immediately that was forgotten by the writers.