McAvoy wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:07 am
I always wondered how much his human half really did anything to Spock when it came to controlling his emotions. From what we have been told, Vulcan emotions long ago were very intense much more than humans.
Did his human half actually weaken his Vulcan side's natural superiority in mental discipline?
It's not like Torres who had two species that are very distinct to each other in temperament. That it required her human side to tame her Klingon side.
I've had a similar thought that, ironically, Spock is innately calmer than most Vulcans.
When his father loses control and Tuvok, they are a MESS.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 11:30 pm
To say that Spock only loses control a lot because he has a lot of control and therefore doesn't lose control a lot makes less sense than what CP is saying.
First, Spock doesn't lose control a lot. He's entirely emotionally detached well in excess of 90% of the time he's on screen, and remember that in universe even all the times we see the characters at all is supposed to be a tiny fraction of their lives.
Second, the few times he does is always and only when some kind of powerful mind-altering effect is at play. Name a time Spock loses emotional control and there isn't some kind of extreme force at play over him. Moreover, the proof is in how the characters react to this. For any other character, Spock's actions in any one of these instances would get them thrown in the brig and court martialed. The fact that this never happens to Spock is precisely because everyone in-universe knows that he's literally not in control of himself but is under some kind of influence.
Amusingly, I actually did this for my Star Trek: Adventures game and thought DISCO fans here would enjoy it.
Everything is Time Travel Related
* Historically, the original timeline of humanity was TOS and that was how the Enterprise appeared before time was altered. Starships were big, blocky, and while sturdy they were not seemingly as advanced or visually appealing as before. Furthermore, Starfleet was significantly more militant and harsh.
+ The first divergent point in Starfleet history is First Contact where Zephram Cochrane met Starfleet and became a significantly more idealistic figure who helped influence the United Earth Probe Agency to become more focused on exploration versus conflict.
+ The second divergence point is far more dramatic due to the Temporal Cold War when the Suliban ROYALLY screwed up the timeline by accidentally diverting a Klingon to Earth in "Broken Bow." In the original timeline, Jonathan Archer was known as a test pilot and warp engineer who failed to get the NX-01 off the ground and the first Enterprise would not launch until the Constitution-class decades later.
Due to the Klingons arrival, Archer gets his chance and suddenly the Earth enters space decades earlier and mucks with the timeline. This is why Daniels is so surprised the Federation ceases to exist in "Shockwave" if Archer is removed because Archer SHOULDN'T be that important. Originally, he was just a random NASA guy but is now elevated to George Washington as well as Neil Armstrong.
+ History proves robust and the Federation still unfolds much the same way as it did in normal history even with things like the Xindi War and a much friendlier relationship with the Andorians. The Federation forms out of mutual interest instead of a reponse to Romulan aggression. Technology gets a few decades leap ahead of itself and the USS Enterprise is now a much more advanced exploratory vessel with less focus on militancy.
(This notably affected the Kelvin timeline as well)
+ Star Trek: Discovery and Strange New Worlds are the result of this new and revised timeline as is the first Klingon War that happens before the events of "Errand of Mercy." Events are still eerily similar and ironically are probably due to Daniels and other time cops trying to make sure things still are broadly the same. This sadly includes making sure Christopher Pike ends up crippled by his experiences.
(If you absolutely need an explanation, Robert April's father married another woman in changing timeline as well but is functionally the same man historically)
+ Notably, in the original timeline, Michael Burnham's family lived a perfectly normal life due to the fact the Federation (or Section 31) never developed an interest in time travel or stealing Klingon time travel crystals. The theft of the time crystals that triggered Michael's parents' murder happened only because Archer discovered time travel a century earlier than Kirk and widely advertised it. This resulted in Sarek adopting her and her sudden appearance in Spock's life, resulting in him being slightly more comfortable expressing emotions.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 11:30 pm
To say that Spock only loses control a lot because he has a lot of control and therefore doesn't lose control a lot makes less sense than what CP is saying.
First, Spock doesn't lose control a lot. He's entirely emotionally detached well in excess of 90% of the time he's on screen, and remember that in universe even all the times we see the characters at all is supposed to be a tiny fraction of their lives.
Second, the few times he does is always and only when some kind of powerful mind-altering effect is at play. Name a time Spock loses emotional control and there isn't some kind of extreme force at play over him. Moreover, the proof is in how the characters react to this. For any other character, Spock's actions in any one of these instances would get them thrown in the brig and court martialed. The fact that this never happens to Spock is precisely because everyone in-universe knows that he's literally not in control of himself but is under some kind of influence.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:07 am
I always wondered how much his human half really did anything to Spock when it came to controlling his emotions. From what we have been told, Vulcan emotions long ago were very intense much more than humans.
Did his human half actually weaken his Vulcan side's natural superiority in mental discipline?
It's not like Torres who had two species that are very distinct to each other in temperament. That it required her human side to tame her Klingon side.
I've had a similar thought that, ironically, Spock is innately calmer than most Vulcans.
When his father loses control and Tuvok, they are a MESS.
Yeah we were told that Spock was at odds with his human side, but what was the conflict to begin with?
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 11:30 pm
To say that Spock only loses control a lot because he has a lot of control and therefore doesn't lose control a lot makes less sense than what CP is saying.
First, Spock doesn't lose control a lot. He's entirely emotionally detached well in excess of 90% of the time he's on screen, and remember that in universe even all the times we see the characters at all is supposed to be a tiny fraction of their lives.
Second, the few times he does is always and only when some kind of powerful mind-altering effect is at play. Name a time Spock loses emotional control and there isn't some kind of extreme force at play over him. Moreover, the proof is in how the characters react to this. For any other character, Spock's actions in any one of these instances would get them thrown in the brig and court martialed. The fact that this never happens to Spock is precisely because everyone in-universe knows that he's literally not in control of himself but is under some kind of influence.
By terms of emotional conflict, the only thing that comes to mind since I've seen the series twice over the last few years is when Spock's mom is on board.
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 11:30 pm
To say that Spock only loses control a lot because he has a lot of control and therefore doesn't lose control a lot makes less sense than what CP is saying.
The way I'm reading it, he's saying that this is basically the equivalent of the Worf Effect.
Vulcans are a powerfully passionate people, to the point that their wars very nearly resulted in their extinction. They master (or repress, depending on the individual) their emotions because they cannot afford to not do so. It's like someone who is a violent and dangerous drunk swearing off alcohol completely because they can't handle it. And when I say that a Vulcan who has lost control is dangerous, I'm understating the situation.
Human emotion is less dangerous, but we have less of an ability to repress it. That's the conflict - Spock's heritage exposes him to risks that it also makes him less able to mitigate, at least from the Vulcan perspective.
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows." -- George Orwell, 1984
