Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

Post by CharlesPhipps »

Mabus wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:18 pmAnd how is the scene where Spock (in T'Pring's body) knocking out that Vulcan "criminal" with a punch supposed to be funny? "Perhaps we should keep the details of how exactly we captured Barjan between us"...there were 5 Vulcans (and one Andorian) right next to you, who saw what you did. Are you also gonna tell them to keep the incident a secret? Besides, didn't Nimoy make a point that a nerve pinch would be more in line with a Vulcan than punching?
It's not supposed to be a secret or illegal anyway since T'Pring has the surprisingly interesting job of being a parole officer.

Disabling him and dragging him off may not seem very Federation-y but he's a criminal in violation of his species legal code that she's been assigned to bring back in.

I do disagree with your statement about the characters not being developed, though. So far, every one of them have received an episode devoted to their characterization and backstory.
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clearspira
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Mabus wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:18 pm Episode 5:
This episode highlights a big issue with the show, namely the dialogue is just bad. It doesn't feel natural at all, it's like the writers decided to give the absolute minimum effort into writing. The series desperately needs new writers and the studio to stop micromanaging, but that's not gonna happen.
While it's nice that there's a more light hearted episode (though I think for the fifth episode is too soon), the characters aren't fleshed out enough and very little of importance is revealed during this episode.

The only thing worse than the dialogue is the editing. Each scene cuts off so fast, it feels like it was made for people with serious ADD, I had to replay some of the scenes, since stuff was happening too fast. Though eventually this wasn't necessary, since I realized that not much happens in the episode.

It's something of a poor decision to make a body swap joke, when both the actors give an equally flat performance, see, that's the whole point of a body swap of a joke: each actor imitates the other. And it's not like all actors that portrayed Vulcans did it the same. Both Nimoy and Lenard portrayed Vulcans, and their performances are distinct enough that you can tell who is who.

And how is the scene where Spock (in T'Pring's body) knocking out that Vulcan "criminal" with a punch supposed to be funny? "Perhaps we should keep the details of how exactly we captured Barjan between us"...there were 5 Vulcans (and one Andorian) right next to you, who saw what you did. Are you also gonna tell them to keep the incident a secret? Besides, didn't Nimoy make a point that a nerve pinch would be more in line with a Vulcan than punching?

Since it's not offensively bad, just a waste of time, I can't and won't give it more than 4/10.
You're right about body swap episodes. Really the whole point of them is to showcase the actors abilities. I don't see how Vulcans can pull this off tbh given how they are generally boards of wood.

I hate body swapping on principle anyway. More often than not they just come off as gross violations that the script is trying to tell me is funny. At least Vulcans aren't likely to feel up the other persons boobs or have sex in that body (I guess, I haven't seen it). For some reason its no longer sexual assault if you use their own hands against their will. The only body swap story I have ever seen done that recognised this was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Faith had sex as Buffy.
Not to mention as Chuck pointed out in his review of Atlantis ''Duet'' that these episodes often suffer from genre blindness where the just forget that the Goa'uld has already established that having your body stolen is a fate worse than death. And now its hilarious! Look at Mackay, kissing a man!
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Mabus
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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clearspira wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:30 am You're right about body swap episodes. Really the whole point of them is to showcase the actors abilities. I don't see how Vulcans can pull this off tbh given how they are generally boards of wood.

I hate body swapping on principle anyway. More often than not they just come off as gross violations that the script is trying to tell me is funny. At least Vulcans aren't likely to feel up the other persons boobs or have sex in that body (I guess, I haven't seen it). For some reason its no longer sexual assault if you use their own hands against their will. The only body swap story I have ever seen done that recognised this was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Faith had sex as Buffy.
Not to mention as Chuck pointed out in his review of Atlantis ''Duet'' that these episodes often suffer from genre blindness where the just forget that the Goa'uld has already established that having your body stolen is a fate worse than death. And now its hilarious! Look at Mackay, kissing a man!
I always found it kind of odd how Stargate already did a better episode involving body swapping and then years later they somehow manage to make a worse episode with the same topic. I think what made "Holiday" work is they involved multiple characters which covered at least 4 POVs (though I should only say 3, since Shanks also played Ma'chello), where Duet is mostly "Haha, I too get to control your body, here's how it's funny". Also, the comedy was more restrained in the SG1 episode, while in the SGA episode they just went overboard.

Back to the episode, before ep. 5, T'Pring only appeared for 4 minutes onscreen, all of which happened in the first episode, which is not enough to give her a proper characterization, especially when she does next to nothing in those 4 minutes. There's a reason why body-swapping stories are done with characters that were either developed enough before the respective episode, or are distinct enough that you can tell something happened. And since we barely know the character of T'Pring, her role in the negotiations while she's in Spock's body is practically waste of time, since ultimately Pike saves the day.

Which, come to think about it, is another thing SG1's "Holiday" does better: on one hand you literally have two different characters (played by the same actor) who you're not supposed to tell at first that they've been body swapped, and then later two very different characters (O'Neill and Teal'c) that swap bodies and you can tell it from the Moon. It plays a with the setting, creating something different.
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Madner Kami
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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clearspira wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:30 amI hate body swapping on principle anyway. More often than not they just come off as gross violations that the script is trying to tell me is funny. At least Vulcans aren't likely to feel up the other persons boobs or have sex in that body (I guess, I haven't seen it). For some reason its no longer sexual assault if you use their own hands against their will. The only body swap story I have ever seen done that recognised this was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Faith had sex as Buffy.
It doesn't harm the personality though, does it? Violence is really only violence if it happens against the wishes (or, argueably, bodily integrity) of the subject, but the moment the minds were swapt, said subject doesn't technically exist anymore and instead you have a completely new entity. I'd argue you're under moral obligations to not do certain things, but... exploring your new self is well within the realm of acceptable. Argueably, sex goes a bit far (until it's established the situation is something not so temporary), what with the medical implications and potential legal ramifications, but exploring your new self? I mean, a lot of simple daily things are practically impossible without breaking what would constitute a violation of privacy at the very least or an outright sexual assault under any other circumstance. I mean, going to the bathroom? Changing clothes? Taking a shower? Impossible without touching yourself or seeing yourself naked. Courtesy dictates to be discrete about it, but beyond that? Bets are off (and, personally, I'd encourage my switched counter-part to go all out with everything that doesn't harm the body's integrity or produces legal ramifications) and that's ok.
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Madner Kami wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:35 pm
clearspira wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:30 amI hate body swapping on principle anyway. More often than not they just come off as gross violations that the script is trying to tell me is funny. At least Vulcans aren't likely to feel up the other persons boobs or have sex in that body (I guess, I haven't seen it). For some reason its no longer sexual assault if you use their own hands against their will. The only body swap story I have ever seen done that recognised this was in Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Faith had sex as Buffy.
It doesn't harm the personality though, does it? Violence is really only violence if it happens against the wishes (or, argueably, bodily integrity) of the subject, but the moment the minds were swapt, said subject doesn't technically exist anymore and instead you have a completely new entity. I'd argue you're under moral obligations to not do certain things, but... exploring your new self is well within the realm of acceptable. Argueably, sex goes a bit far (until it's established the situation is something not so temporary), what with the medical implications and potential legal ramifications, but exploring your new self? I mean, a lot of simple daily things are practically impossible without breaking what would constitute a violation of privacy at the very least or an outright sexual assault under any other circumstance. I mean, going to the bathroom? Changing clothes? Taking a shower? Impossible without touching yourself or seeing yourself naked. Courtesy dictates to be discrete about it, but beyond that? Bets are off (and, personally, I'd encourage my switched counter-part to go all out with everything that doesn't harm the body's integrity or produces legal ramifications) and that's ok.
I remember reading a poll where men and women were asked what would be the first thing you do if you swapped bodies with the opposite sex. Men had the typical response, play with the boobs and check out the female orgasm. The women? Go pee standing up and some said do the helicopter. That always amuses me.

Anyway, with me, since I am not driving my own meat suit, you could probably do whatever you want within reason, nothing permanent, illegal or body altering. I wouldn't know. It would go the same with me if I was driving someone's meat suit.
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Body swapping usually has the implicit assumption that the mind is something separate from the physiology, which in reality doesn't seem to be the case any more than a book and the story printed in it can be separated. Yes, you can copy the story into another form and so on, but if you erase all the printing in the book the story doesn't continue to exist in it.

This was a big problem with Stargate: Universe, and it doesn't surprise me that it pops up here: it's a staple of bad science fiction.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Frustration wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:57 pm Body swapping usually has the implicit assumption that the mind is something separate from the physiology, which in reality doesn't seem to be the case any more than a book and the story printed in it can be separated.
It depends on how you define consciousness. Divorcing the subject of any kind of spiritualism, if you erase the personality and memories of a person, print a new personality and memories in their mind, and then do the same in reverse to another person then it will look/act the exact same as a body transfer.

I.e. just like what happens with computers transferring files.

But that is getting far deeper into the subject of what is meant to be a wacky hijinks episode even if mind-implantation is something people are looking into today.
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Frustration
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Brains aren't designed to be able to gain and erase information as electronic computers do. And even if memory could somehow be erased by altering the structure of the brain, the limits of that brain would constrain the resulting mind. You can't put a genius' memories into a moron's brain and get a genius.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Frustration wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:13 pm Brains aren't designed to be able to gain and erase information as electronic computers do. And even if memory could somehow be erased by altering the structure of the brain, the limits of that brain would constrain the resulting mind. You can't put a genius' memories into a moron's brain and get a genius.
We're dealing with the technology of the far advanced future here. Bluntly, if you're going to draw the line at replacing neurons and changing them around, you might already begin with warp drive and transporters. Besides, consciousness is a process not a physical property. David Chalmers pointed out everything we "are" isn't remotely a quality of our neurons but the information therein and their interaction.

Its soft science but Star Trek has never been hard science.
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Madner Kami
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Re: Star Trek: Strange new worlds

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Frustration wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:13 pmBrains aren't designed to be able to gain and erase information as electronic computers do. And even if memory could somehow be erased by altering the structure of the brain, the limits of that brain would constrain the resulting mind. You can't put a genius' memories into a moron's brain and get a genius.
Comparing brains to computers is a fundamental misunderstanding, that much is true, as there's no division between hardware and software in a brain. The hardware is the software. But, brains are extremely plastic, otherwise we wouldn't be able to build memories on the fly like we do. The exact mechanics are barely understood, but it stands to reason that if you can "print" or "alter" the neuronal networks, you'd be able to copy a brain and thus a person/personality.
Also, it is clear that electrical input can alter the brain's functions quite drastically and electrical stimulation thus can reasonably be argued to alter the neuronal network in rather fundamental ways on the fly.
It's at least thinkable to create a situation where either mechanical or electrical input could alter a person or personality, thus allowing for the transfering of a person or personality from one body to another.
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