VOY: Lineage

[clearspira]

All I could think of when Chuck noted that there are no counsellors on Voyager is: Starfleet's track record up until this point is Troi and Ezri. Torres would probably end up having her daughter aborted after seeking help from them.

Anyway, this is why designer babies is a dumb idea that should always be illegal.
''I don't like the ridges on my baby's forehead'' can easily transpose to -
''I don't like my baby being black''
''I don't like my baby being this sex''
''I don't like my baby being an inch too short''
''I don't like my baby having brown eyes when his sister has blue.''

That's how this works. Human beings as fashion. Human beings as objects. Or at worst, ethnic cleansing or gendercide. Human beings are not smart enough or mature enough to handle this power.

[Fianna]

They don't have a marriage counselor onboard.

There's Neelix.

Also, while it probably wouldn't be the argument Torres would want to hear, one reason why Tom would never leave her and the baby: they're 70 years away from reaching home. Even if he wanted to leave, they'd still all be stuck on the ship together.

[Thebestoftherest]

For some reason this review made me think, wouldn't it be funny if the babies from threshold appear in that animated janeway show looking for their parents.

[bz316]

One thing I liked about this episode was that it didn't minimize what Torres went through as a kid, or make it seem like what she went through didn't matter. For someone who does not experience bigotry, it can be very easy to dismiss small expressions of it as "unimportant" or "something to ignore." But having to deal with insults, even if it's just childish taunting, because you are from a group different from that of the majority can eat away at a person, slowly chipping away at their self-esteem and making them feel like they are lesser than those around them. Adult Torres may be overreacting a bit in the present to things, but it is clearly built off of real trauma. Not just her father leaving her, but the memory of being diminished bit by bit every day of her life by those around her, including her own family.

[CrypticMirror]

All I could think of when Chuck noted that there are no counsellors on Voyager is: Starfleet's track record up until this point is Troi and Ezri. Torres would probably end up having her daughter aborted after seeking help from them.

Anyway, this is why designer babies is a dumb idea that should always be illegal.
''I don't like the ridges on my baby's forehead'' can easily transpose to -
''I don't like my baby being black''
''I don't like my baby being this sex''
''I don't like my baby being an inch too short''
''I don't like my baby having brown eyes when his sister has blue.''

That's how this works. Human beings as fashion. Human beings as objects. Or at worst, ethnic cleansing or gendercide. Human beings are not smart enough or mature enough to handle this power.

Only one of those is a problem. I see no problem allowing us to edit a bunch of cells, which are not yet anything at all, to be a better eventual fit with the parents. Editing ethnicity is more problematic, simply because ethnic identities are a more complex historical paradigm.

[9ansean]

One thing I liked about this episode was that it didn't minimize what Torres went through as a kid, or make it seem like what she went through didn't matter. For someone who does not experience bigotry, it can be very easy to dismiss small expressions of it as "unimportant" or "something to ignore." But having to deal with insults, even if it's just childish taunting, because you are from a group different from that of the majority can eat away at a person, slowly chipping away at their self-esteem and making them feel like they are lesser than those around them. Adult Torres may be overreacting a bit in the present to things, but it is clearly built off of real trauma. Not just her father leaving her, but the memory of being diminished bit by bit every day of her life by those around her, including her own family.

Very wisely put.

[sayla0079]

All I could think of when Chuck noted that there are no counsellors on Voyager is: Starfleet's track record up until this point is Troi and Ezri. Torres would probably end up having her daughter aborted after seeking help from them.

This part I disagree with considering she wasn't raised in the Federation I can see Ezri having a different mindset on this than Troi and approaching it differently.

[9ansean]

All I could think of when Chuck noted that there are no counsellors on Voyager is: Starfleet's track record up until this point is Troi and Ezri. Torres would probably end up having her daughter aborted after seeking help from them.

At least Troi would actually show Torres the kind of understanding she wasn't getting as a child. This episode really soured me on Mr. Torres. Because as someone whose had to deal with Tourette Syndrome and OSD since my pre-teens and all the bullying that came with it I personally HATE whenever anyone says "You need to learn to be less SENSITIVE." Especially to children! And I'm so glad Chuck pointed out that young Torres wasn't even acting out that badly at the time.

Yes one does need to know how to properly modulate your thoughts and sensations to work with those around you, but attempting to deny the doubting thoughts about yourself isn't going to make them go away. It's only go to leave you feeling like even more of a defective for to not being able to stop getting upset. What makes it especially bad in this case as that Klingons are routinely associated with a like of emotional control and brought in a culture that encourage them to channel aggression into honorable combat. To live with that stigma of being always associated with aggression and being expected to somehow not to be bother when provoked about it, potentially left her feeling like she was always a failure to both parts her identity.

It really says something that for all the flake Vulcans get for being unfeeling and condescending, at least Sarek confirmed for young Spock(in TAS: Yesteryear anyway) that separating yourself from emotions is highly challenging.

SAREK: Spock. Spock, being Vulcan means following disciplines and philosophies that are difficult and demanding of both mind and body.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: You constantly display your emotions. You have even been seen fighting in the street.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: The time draws near when you will have to decide whether you will follow Vulcan or human philosophy. Vulcan offers much. No war, no crime. Order, logic and control in place of raw emotions and instinct. Once on the path you choose, you cannot turn back.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.

[9ansean]

I really did like this episode as a character piece for Torres does build upon both her own backstory and her unfolding relationship with Tom. There are two minor issues though.

One is that while the emotional climax is masterfully acted, the score kinds of lays it down a little too thick. I would be interesting in finding another cut of the scene with just her the two talking without all the violins. Because they are both totally convincing.

The other bigger disappoint is that we didn't get an appearance from Naomi this episode or even a mention of her and Samantha. Putting aside how long it's been since the writers seem to remember the later is still alive, one would think they could help support Tom's point about how their child would be welcomed on Voyager. I would have loved to hear Naomi's perspective on being the child of two different species in a supportive environment that constant with Torres own childhood or hearing Samantha's take on raising a child that's deemed different.

[sayla0079]

All I could think of when Chuck noted that there are no counsellors on Voyager is: Starfleet's track record up until this point is Troi and Ezri. Torres would probably end up having her daughter aborted after seeking help from them.

At least Troi would actually show Torres the kind of understanding she wasn't getting as a child. This episode really soured me on Mr. Torres. Because as someone whose had to deal with Tourette Syndrome and OSD since my pre-teens and all the bullying that came with it I personally HATE whenever anyone says "You need to learn to be less SENSITIVE." Especially to children! And I'm so glad Chuck pointed out that young Torres wasn't even acting out that badly at the time.

Yes one does need to know how to properly modulate your thoughts and sensations to work with those around you, but attempting to deny the doubting thoughts about yourself isn't going to make them go away. It's only go to leave you feeling like even more of a defective for to not being able to stop getting upset. What makes it especially bad in this case as that Klingons are routinely associated with a like of emotional control and brought in a culture that encourage them to channel aggression into honorable combat. To live with that stigma of being always associated with aggression and being expected to somehow not to be bother when provoked about it, potentially left her feeling like she was always a failure to both parts her identity.

It really says something that for all the flake Vulcans get for being unfeeling and condescending, at least Sarek confirmed for young Spock(in TAS: Yesteryear anyway) that separating yourself from emotions is highly challenging.

SAREK: Spock. Spock, being Vulcan means following disciplines and philosophies that are difficult and demanding of both mind and body.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: You constantly display your emotions. You have even been seen fighting in the street.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: The time draws near when you will have to decide whether you will follow Vulcan or human philosophy. Vulcan offers much. No war, no crime. Order, logic and control in place of raw emotions and instinct. Once on the path you choose, you cannot turn back.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.

That is true Troi being half human and half alien can relate to some of what B'lanna went through.