Voyager: Rise

[Riedquat]

A "scale model" space elevator wouldn't make any sense whatsoever if it was 1/10 or 1/100 sized. The reason the concept works at all is that the elevator goes up to a platform in geostationary orbit which is stabilized by a counterweight at something like twice the distance. Making the thing smaller would only turn it into a weapon of mass destruction as it destabilizes and comes crashing down on the planet.

Making a functioning model of part of it though makes as much sense as any hobby.

[McAvoy]

Still alot of material for a model too. Not the cabin that it rides on but actually making a kilometers long shaft or line would be require alot of work. Even if the thing is super thin.

Imagine trying to make a 10 km long rod now. He had no replicator either. He would have to do it like how we do it too.

[Lazerlike42]

This episode really highlights the primary aspect of Neelix that I dislike the most. It's not that he's frequently incompetent or a liar. For example, I love Quark and Rom, and they are frequently one or both of these things depending on the circumstance. For me, its the fact that he NEEDS to be liked and be friends with everyone, and he literally cannot stand the thought that someone does not like him. I have met many people in my life, and the overwhelming majority probably don't like me. Mostly, those people are ambivalent towards me (or mildly dislike me in some cases), and that's fine. Not everyone needs to be my friend. I'm perfectly fine with most people being "that guy I know from work" or "that woman who often waits at the same bus stop as me." But Neelix, when confronted with the reality of someone not liking him, rather than just accepting it and moving on with his life, needles them relentlessly as though that will change their feelings towards him. That kind of pathological neediness is not endearing "Voyager," it's fucking insufferable.

You just described my life lol.

Seriously though, Neelix is a narcissist through and through. Look at how he treated Kes talking to other men even after she gave him a lung and asked him to be the father of her only child. For most men that would be enough of an indication that she is loyal. But Neelix comes off an abuser and i've thought that since my first viewing of him. And given how Kes was the equivalent of a child when they first met I guess we can throw groomer in there too.

I think part of the problem with Neelix is that it seems like he was created for the concept of what the series was supposed to be/could have been and was written this way in the early episodes, but then had to be changed to fit into what the series actually became in practice.

As has been mentioned many times by just about everyone who is involved with this site, the idea of a Starfleet ship stranded 70 years from home with a mixed crew of Starfleet and Maquis having to find a way to survive and get back could have, and maybe should have, led to a very different series with much more tension among the crew with more compromises being made and so on. I think Enterprise season 3 may have actually done a much better job of this than Voyager did in its entire run.

For THAT show Neelix's original character made sense. He was a conman. He was a user. He was annoying, but he wasn't annoying just to be annoying: he was annoying in the way that DJ (the codebreaker guy) from the Last Jedi was or maybe the guy who they get to program the fake holorecording in DS9's In the Pale Moonlight - annoying because he has what you need and he knows it. This is how he was written in the first few episodes. In the pilot, of course, he lies and tricks everyone to rescue Kes. (This is actually his one sort of redeeming quality early on - even if flawed, he genuinely cares for Kes). Then in either the second or the third episode, he wants to take Kes out on his ship until Voyager has dealt with the problem because he is willing to accept Voyager's benefits but doesn't want to also bear its burdens. Then in the first Vidiian episode we see his attitude, even if it's a little bit more understandable there.

The problem is that before long the show had abandoned any concept of tension and had everyone sing Kumbaya and agree to operate the ship entirely according to Starfleet standards and in most ways it may as well be The Next Generation, and Neelix's character really just wouldn't work for that. It's just not at all conceivable or believable that Janeway would keep that version of Neelix around with the ship functioning as a well oiled Starfleet ship upholding all the protocols and such, so he had to be changed to fit in and to work with that. How do you do that, though, given the characterization you he had in those first episodes? I think what we got is the answer to that question.

[Mindworm]

Neelix is someone who is clearly, fundamentally messed up, and people like that tend not to be someone that you want to spend time with if it is avoidable.

One thing that gets overlooked, and to be fair remembering it involves some baaad episodes, is that he's basically someone whose family was at Hiroshima and was early to the scene thus getting the full brunt of the seriously heavy blow of psychological trauma from the horrors that he saw there. Not helped that the nuke equivalent got dropped in a war he see's himself as a coward for running away from taking part in.

The man resulting from that so desperately tries to form connections because he had his former ones so brutally stolen, and that lack of connection is a gaping wound that constantly haunts him, and because he doesn't handle that trauma very well due to having no one to help him with that results in him deperately latching onto a sister substitute (who he may or may not be sleeping with based on Elogium), and someone he so very wishes that he was his best friend that acts out fantasies on the holodeck of throttling him.

It's a pity they didn't write that Neelix.

[McAvoy]

Neelix is someone who is clearly, fundamentally messed up, and people like that tend not to be someone that you want to spend time with if it is avoidable.

One thing that gets overlooked, and to be fair remembering it involves some baaad episodes, is that he's basically someone whose family was at Hiroshima and was early to the scene thus getting the full brunt of the seriously heavy blow of psychological trauma from the horrors that he saw there. Not helped that the nuke equivalent got dropped in a war he see's himself as a coward for running away from taking part in.

The man resulting from that so desperately tries to form connections because he had his former ones so brutally stolen, and that lack of connection is a gaping wound that constantly haunts him, and because he doesn't handle that trauma very well due to having no one to help him with that results in him deperately latching onto a sister substitute (who he may or may not be sleeping with based on Elogium), and someone he so very wishes that he was his best friend that acts out fantasies on the holodeck of throttling him.

It's a pity they didn't write that Neelix.

It's a pity they didn't stick to the potential of the premier. Starfleet and Maquis struggling to work together. A Starfleet ship on its own without any support. With potential enemies everywhere. Making some tough decisions.

Paris not being trusted by either Starfleet and Maquis. Tuvok not being trusted by the Maquis. Chakotay trying to keep his crew happy and under control. Janeway trying to maintain Starfleet ideals with what amounts to trained civilians who don't like Starfleet. Torres becoming more Starfleet over the course of the show than Maquis.

Kes being a stabilizing effect on Neelix who is one or two chances of turning on Voyager. The Doctor being the Doctor. But he has to be on the mobile emitter as the holodeck emitters in Sick Bay are destroyed.

Kim loses his innocence. He does get promoted. He may or may not betray Janeway as he wants to go home.

Voyager over the course of the series becoming ever increasingly damaged. Like by the end of the series, Voyager has green and red hull plating on repairs. A different alien nacelle. Maybe some Borg tech on the deflector which is barely functioning. Half the lifeboats were deployed and never brought back, so open holes. Visible cracks in the hull. Like imagine Year of Hell Voyager but repaired.

No Delta Flyer but the Aeroshuttle. Maybe no more Starfleet shuttles but alien ones. Since they don't have the resources to build them.

[FaxModem1]

Neelix is someone who is clearly, fundamentally messed up, and people like that tend not to be someone that you want to spend time with if it is avoidable.

One thing that gets overlooked, and to be fair remembering it involves some baaad episodes, is that he's basically someone whose family was at Hiroshima and was early to the scene thus getting the full brunt of the seriously heavy blow of psychological trauma from the horrors that he saw there. Not helped that the nuke equivalent got dropped in a war he see's himself as a coward for running away from taking part in.

The man resulting from that so desperately tries to form connections because he had his former ones so brutally stolen, and that lack of connection is a gaping wound that constantly haunts him, and because he doesn't handle that trauma very well due to having no one to help him with that results in him deperately latching onto a sister substitute (who he may or may not be sleeping with based on Elogium), and someone he so very wishes that he was his best friend that acts out fantasies on the holodeck of throttling him.

It's a pity they didn't write that Neelix.

They did, on occasion. Mortal Coil, for instance, is all about Neelix and how he feels about the fact that if he died and came back, with no afterlife, then his sister and the rest of his family are all nothing but dust from the Metreon Cascade. Night, when it focuses on Neelix, is a guy going through severe anxiety because the emptiness terrifies him. Riddles is about how he gives up having the brain damaged Tuvok as his best friend because everyone else misses the old original Tuvok.

Neelix did improve somewhat, depending on the scene. After a certain point(I think with Day of Honor), he acts as someone B'elanna can go to when she has a problem, in a similar way to how people talked to Guinan or Quark. The big issue is that Neelix still acts like a self important idiot every season.

[clearspira]

Neelix is someone who is clearly, fundamentally messed up, and people like that tend not to be someone that you want to spend time with if it is avoidable.

One thing that gets overlooked, and to be fair remembering it involves some baaad episodes, is that he's basically someone whose family was at Hiroshima and was early to the scene thus getting the full brunt of the seriously heavy blow of psychological trauma from the horrors that he saw there. Not helped that the nuke equivalent got dropped in a war he see's himself as a coward for running away from taking part in.

The man resulting from that so desperately tries to form connections because he had his former ones so brutally stolen, and that lack of connection is a gaping wound that constantly haunts him, and because he doesn't handle that trauma very well due to having no one to help him with that results in him deperately latching onto a sister substitute (who he may or may not be sleeping with based on Elogium), and someone he so very wishes that he was his best friend that acts out fantasies on the holodeck of throttling him.

It's a pity they didn't write that Neelix.

It's a pity they didn't stick to the potential of the premier. Starfleet and Maquis struggling to work together. A Starfleet ship on its own without any support. With potential enemies everywhere. Making some tough decisions.

Paris not being trusted by either Starfleet and Maquis. Tuvok not being trusted by the Maquis. Chakotay trying to keep his crew happy and under control. Janeway trying to maintain Starfleet ideals with what amounts to trained civilians who don't like Starfleet. Torres becoming more Starfleet over the course of the show than Maquis.

Kes being a stabilizing effect on Neelix who is one or two chances of turning on Voyager. The Doctor being the Doctor. But he has to be on the mobile emitter as the holodeck emitters in Sick Bay are destroyed.

Kim loses his innocence. He does get promoted. He may or may not betray Janeway as he wants to go home.

Voyager over the course of the series becoming ever increasingly damaged. Like by the end of the series, Voyager has green and red hull plating on repairs. A different alien nacelle. Maybe some Borg tech on the deflector which is barely functioning. Half the lifeboats were deployed and never brought back, so open holes. Visible cracks in the hull. Like imagine Year of Hell Voyager but repaired.

No Delta Flyer but the Aeroshuttle. Maybe no more Starfleet shuttles but alien ones. Since they don't have the resources to build them.

Speaking of Voyager's original Neelix, I think giving Kes only 9 years to live may have been part of that. When you think about it, giving such a damaged man a girlfriend/wife who is going to be dead in a few years would be a great motivator for him to betray Voyager for the fountain of youth, as well as for him to equate her situation with his dead family. He has happiness, but he knows that it isn't going to last.

Plus, as we see even in the actual Voyager that we got, Kes is ageing both mentally and physically at an accelerated rate. If we equate every season to 10 years of her life, she goes from being a naive teenager to a thirty-something woman in only two years. A woman no longer ready to take Neelix's shit. Imagine the alternate Neelix getting that Dear John letter.

[McAvoy]

Neelix is someone who is clearly, fundamentally messed up, and people like that tend not to be someone that you want to spend time with if it is avoidable.

One thing that gets overlooked, and to be fair remembering it involves some baaad episodes, is that he's basically someone whose family was at Hiroshima and was early to the scene thus getting the full brunt of the seriously heavy blow of psychological trauma from the horrors that he saw there. Not helped that the nuke equivalent got dropped in a war he see's himself as a coward for running away from taking part in.

The man resulting from that so desperately tries to form connections because he had his former ones so brutally stolen, and that lack of connection is a gaping wound that constantly haunts him, and because he doesn't handle that trauma very well due to having no one to help him with that results in him deperately latching onto a sister substitute (who he may or may not be sleeping with based on Elogium), and someone he so very wishes that he was his best friend that acts out fantasies on the holodeck of throttling him.

It's a pity they didn't write that Neelix.

It's a pity they didn't stick to the potential of the premier. Starfleet and Maquis struggling to work together. A Starfleet ship on its own without any support. With potential enemies everywhere. Making some tough decisions.

Paris not being trusted by either Starfleet and Maquis. Tuvok not being trusted by the Maquis. Chakotay trying to keep his crew happy and under control. Janeway trying to maintain Starfleet ideals with what amounts to trained civilians who don't like Starfleet. Torres becoming more Starfleet over the course of the show than Maquis.

Kes being a stabilizing effect on Neelix who is one or two chances of turning on Voyager. The Doctor being the Doctor. But he has to be on the mobile emitter as the holodeck emitters in Sick Bay are destroyed.

Kim loses his innocence. He does get promoted. He may or may not betray Janeway as he wants to go home.

Voyager over the course of the series becoming ever increasingly damaged. Like by the end of the series, Voyager has green and red hull plating on repairs. A different alien nacelle. Maybe some Borg tech on the deflector which is barely functioning. Half the lifeboats were deployed and never brought back, so open holes. Visible cracks in the hull. Like imagine Year of Hell Voyager but repaired.

No Delta Flyer but the Aeroshuttle. Maybe no more Starfleet shuttles but alien ones. Since they don't have the resources to build them.

Speaking of Voyager's original Neelix, I think giving Kes only 9 years to live may have been part of that. When you think about it, giving such a damaged man a girlfriend/wife who is going to be dead in a few years would be a great motivator for him to betray Voyager for the fountain of youth, as well as for him to equate her situation with his dead family. He has happiness, but he knows that it isn't going to last.

Plus, as we see even in the actual Voyager that we got, Kes is ageing both mentally and physically at an accelerated rate. If we equate every season to 10 years of her life, she goes from being a naive teenager to a thirty-something woman in only two years. A woman no longer ready to take Neelix's shit. Imagine the alternate Neelix getting that Dear John letter.

I don't think Kes's lifespan went into the though of Neelix. I think they just thought 'what if humans had the lifespan of a Great Dane dog?'

I think if they kept Kes throughout the entire series and kept to her 9 year lifespan they would explain why she barely aged as Ocampas only age in their final year.

So by the end of season 7 we may have seen Kes physically aging fast as she would be about 8.

But I doubt it, if Kes stayed on board she would have been given some sort of extended lifespan either due to being away from the Caretaker's influence, medical magic or something else.

It's pretty obvious with Neelix that they didn't know how to write him. So he became the Ship's Clown or Ship's Fool.