Hope and Fear

[Swiftbow]

In response to the post above, I feel like that's the result of Trek writers as a whole not actually nailing down how the holodeck works. I know in Voyager they went more for 'hard light' explanation, but Night seemed to push the 'replicated matter' explanation that was seen more in TNG. So yeah, while inconsistent with the rest of the show, there is at least some explanation for why everything didn't just dematerialise, sudden power cut stops the holodeck from performing that function. I don't know about the rest, that's just my bit on it.

And I mean, come on, Seven's 'solution' to dealing with Satan's Robot was hilariously appropriate.

Holodeck problems are many and infinite. One of the most glaring to me has always been how one can play baseball in a 10x10 holosuite. (It's impossible with more than one player... you'd hit the other players with the bat), or that TNG episode where they have to search the Holodeck high and low to find Geordi. Hello? He's in a 30x30 room. That episode doesn't even provide an excuse as to why they can't just turn it off, either.

One of the Kirk books actually addressed this... Kirk and team get locked in a holodeck prison, but use a trick where they run in opposite directions to confuse the sensors, because the holodeck can't handle them being that far apart without glitching. This lets them access the hidden controls.

The holodeck is usually treated like it's a virtual reality... once it's turned on, all the walls are meaningless. But this wouldn't fly in a real room like that. No matter how far you walk, or how much the sensors adjust, you can't be farther apart than the actual room is big.

To its credit... the last Voyager episode Chuck reviewed actually finally addressed the size issue. It was why the Hirogen were expanding the various Holodecks into each other. It was actually clever and I applauded it.

I never said 8472 were being particularly reasonable. But then that's part of my point, it's arrogant and presumptive to just assume you have the right to interfere and get in the middle of things every time and that your mission to get home means you can always just find a way through wherever you want.
Sometimes your presence isn't needed or wanted, and that's something Janeway often has trouble understanding eventhough ither times she worships the Prime Directive above all else.

Yes, that fullly applies in cases of minor races of the week and their conflicts, but not when it comes to the Borg, a galaxy spanning empire, their potential fall to a even greater power and that power seemingly intent on continuing on wiping out life in our galaxy once the Borg are out of the way.

That effects everyone.

Does it though? The Borg were, up until Voyager fucked them up, pretty much the unstoppable force. Yes a force capable of beating them is much stronger but from a practical point of view it doesn't mean much to you. Which ever one wins you're still completely fucked.

The only way this may work out good for the other being involved is if 8472 is actually not a much greater power than the Borg, in that case you can hope that they hit each other so hard that whoever "wins" their power is broken. And from that viewpoint what the Voyager crew did was completely idiotic. The last thing you want in that situation is to give one side a significant advantage.

Exactly this. And, on top of that, the Borg increase their power with each planet they assimilate. 8472 is actively blowing up planets... their power is static. On that measure alone, the Borg are the greater threat.

I can agree that the situation they got into was a tough call... but this episode should have at least given Janeway a moment to pause and reflect on her actions. Instead she acts (and the script seems to think) that her decision was beyond reproach. Some of the best drama comes from a situation where either option is bad, the leader must choose anyway, and then still regret their action. That's humanizing... Janeway just came across as a douche here. (And it's not the only time.)

[Fianna]

Re: holodeck:

My assumption is that when you see a person in a holodeck, you're not necessarily seeing them directly, but seeing a projection the holodeck's created that shows them being the appropriate distance from you, even if they're really just a few feet away and walking on a treadmill.

[Swiftbow]

Re: holodeck:

My assumption is that when you see a person in a holodeck, you're not necessarily seeing them directly, but seeing a projection the holodeck's created that shows them being the appropriate distance from you, even if they're really just a few feet away and walking on a treadmill.

That sort of works and I'd agree for the visual spectrum. But what about sound? Say you're searching for someone "lost" in the Holodeck. By all logic you should just be able to raise your voice slightly and they'll hear you. Because they're right over there.

[TGLS]

Re: holodeck:

My assumption is that when you see a person in a holodeck, you're not necessarily seeing them directly, but seeing a projection the holodeck's created that shows them being the appropriate distance from you, even if they're really just a few feet away and walking on a treadmill.

That sort of works and I'd agree for the visual spectrum. But what about sound? Say you're searching for someone "lost" in the Holodeck. By all logic you should just be able to raise your voice slightly and they'll hear you. Because they're right over there.

You use force fields to muffle the sound.

[clearspira]

Let's be honest about this: the holodeck is a mess of contradictions, bad writing and poor planning. Sometimes there is a wall five feet from you, and sometimes it has TARDIS like proportions. Sometimes you are ''washed away'' if the holodeck is turned off when you are in it and sometimes you aren't. Sometimes it is completely incompatible with Voyager's power grid and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you can take holomatter off it, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes holograms are alive, and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes it puts clothes over your existing clothes, and sometimes you need to wear your own. And all of those stupid safety protocols designed to kill you.

All of this shit we are coming up with here: treadmills despite a completely smooth floor, sound muffling force fields, vision distorting fields... its all bollocks really. We are trying to put in more thought into it than the writers ever did.

Its a pity the Matrix wasn't out in the 1980s because I think a neural interface would work 100X better than this magical room ever has or ever will.

[Frustration]

Holodeck problems are many and infinite. One of the most glaring to me has always been how one can play baseball in a 10x10 holosuite. (It's impossible with more than one player... you'd hit the other players with the bat)

There IS no bat. Your body is effectively encased in a shield of force fields and photons that interacts with your body in roughly the same way that the 'real' simulated environment would. For simplicity, if space permits actual replicated substances are used, but the simulator chamber only needs to be large enough for everyone involved to be present without touching each other.

So you could go on a journey of thousands of miles but never physically move from one spot.

Larger holodecks exist for the sole purpose of permitting large numbers of users simultaneously.

[Swiftbow]

Holodeck problems are many and infinite. One of the most glaring to me has always been how one can play baseball in a 10x10 holosuite. (It's impossible with more than one player... you'd hit the other players with the bat)

There IS no bat. Your body is effectively encased in a shield of force fields and photons that interacts with your body in roughly the same way that the 'real' simulated environment would. For simplicity, if space permits actual replicated substances are used, but the simulator chamber only needs to be large enough for everyone involved to be present without touching each other.

So you could go on a journey of thousands of miles but never physically move from one spot.

Larger holodecks exist for the sole purpose of permitting large numbers of users simultaneously.

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

Let's be honest about this: the holodeck is a mess of contradictions, bad writing and poor planning. Sometimes there is a wall five feet from you, and sometimes it has TARDIS like proportions. Sometimes you are ''washed away'' if the holodeck is turned off when you are in it and sometimes you aren't. Sometimes it is completely incompatible with Voyager's power grid and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you can take holomatter off it, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes holograms are alive, and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes it puts clothes over your existing clothes, and sometimes you need to wear your own. And all of those stupid safety protocols designed to kill you.

All of this shit we are coming up with here: treadmills despite a completely smooth floor, sound muffling force fields, vision distorting fields... its all bollocks really. We are trying to put in more thought into it than the writers ever did.

Its a pity the Matrix wasn't out in the 1980s because I think a neural interface would work 100X better than this magical room ever has or ever will.

Exactly this. The writers treated the Holodeck like a virtual reality simulation, NOT a physical room. I mean... if the forcefields can do everything some of the posters say they can, then how come forcefields are used for so little else in Trek?

If you can use a forcefield to manipulate matter so perfectly... I mean, damn. Quick example... the main use of forefields it to absorb damage from attacks. But, if you can wrap a forcefield around matter and manipulate it, etc... wouldn't you just use that to "catch" incoming torpedoes? Or, hell, energy blasts since the forefields can apparently catch photons, too? Once caught, your forcefield could reach in and remove the detonator. Or just transport it away. A lot of the world falls apart if your forcefields are THAT powerful.

I guess manipulatable forcefields/"hard" holograms are where the idea for The Doctor came from, even if he's not very well thought out either. I mean... how come there can only be ONE instance of him at any given time? Why does he need a "physical" form at all? I could ramble, but I'll save it for later.

[Frustration]

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

Probably they took over more than one holosuite. There's no reason you have to be anywhere near the other people in the real world - with subspace linkage, you could even be in different star systems as long as you were willing to put up with a little lag.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

If you're not close together, the software doesn't have to worry about you interacting with them. It's not more complicated than having your virtual locations be near.

[McAvoy]

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

Probably they took over more than one holosuite. There's no reason you have to be anywhere near the other people in the real world - with subspace linkage, you could even be in different star systems as long as you were willing to put up with a little lag.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

If you're not close together, the software doesn't have to worry about you interacting with them. It's not more complicated than having your virtual locations be near.

Have we ever seen Trek characters enter and leave a holodeck or holosuite all together? I can't recall.

But having them use two or three linked rooms for the same program makes sense. Like Take Me Out to the Holosuite where you have 19-20 people interacting with the program.

[Swiftbow]

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

Probably they took over more than one holosuite. There's no reason you have to be anywhere near the other people in the real world - with subspace linkage, you could even be in different star systems as long as you were willing to put up with a little lag.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

If you're not close together, the software doesn't have to worry about you interacting with them. It's not more complicated than having your virtual locations be near.

Have we ever seen Trek characters enter and leave a holodeck or holosuite all together? I can't recall.

But having them use two or three linked rooms for the same program makes sense. Like Take Me Out to the Holosuite where you have 19-20 people interacting with the program.

Frequently, yes. Also, characters often walk into someone's holodeck/suite program already in progress, usually interrupting whatever is going on.

It would make SENSE if they were instanced off in little corners, but that has never actually been seen onscreen.